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are doing get ahead work for the eba

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crew there's also no bag for the crew to

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cut through when they arrive

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we then sep d mate again

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orion docks here and now the arms

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aid during the ebas

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just as the rms did during shuttle days

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and ssrms does

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uh now

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does it

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ssrms do they ever stand on the nfs's

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rms yeah

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so afterward the tug could then

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potentially be refueled replenish with

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xenon to go either get another one

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or to do other things that are

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extensible for the human exploration

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system

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tugs are a good thing to have in your

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back pocket if you're

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space faring nation

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so these are things that we are doing

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presently to advance the technology in

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some of these key areas we've got

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a refueling experiment up on space

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station right now that's involving

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advanced tools and i have no time but

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these the only point here is these are

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all photographs of hardware not cad

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renderings of what we're going to do but

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what we are doing now

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and these are those other missions take

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a picture quick

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thanks ben

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all right we keep proving how much how

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little time 10 minutes is um

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the next

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pair of speakers is

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michael esperman and manny liens from

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boeing company

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mike's the director of space science and

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advanced space utilization for boeing

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manny is the director of autonomous

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space capabilities and he will join the

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in the presentation they will address

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the inherent technical schedule and cost

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risks of the the challenging mission and

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discuss how designing the uh asteroid

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redirect systems to incorporate existing

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high heritage spacecraft systems and

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subsystems leveraging proven performance

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high reliability and associated

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investments and experience will reduce

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overall mission risk

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capitalizing on the extensive industry

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production and operations experience

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so mike

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my name is mike as

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jim said this is manny we're from the

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boeing company

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um we're today we're going to talk a

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little bit about

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maybe not so much the specific

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implementation of this mission but but

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ways to manage the risk that are

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inherent in just in a in a program of

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this uh

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magnitude which button is it jim

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for chart don't touch the bottom one um

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the full yeah okay figured it out so

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it's going to be broken into two parts

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i'm going to talk about uh similar

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concepts to what adam talked about a

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little bit what ben talked about how we

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maybe can leverage existing capabilities

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that are that exist within industry and

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that nasa has already invested in to

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really help manage and mitigate the

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asteroid system emission system risks

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and the man is going to talk about

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specifically some investments that have

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been done both by us and by nasa and

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autonomous rendezvous and docking

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terrain relative navigation how that can

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apply to the mission and also reduce the

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overall risk

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so as everybody

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i'm sure recognizes and has been said

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several times today it's a very

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ambitious program that nasa is trying to

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undertake lots of benefits to to the

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nation and to humanity

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and really trying to synergize the

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various things that are going on inside

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of nasa in terms of technology

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development mission execution

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science etc

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but there are a lot of as everybody

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realizes a lot of uncertainties on this

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particular mission uh which really drive

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up the risk it's already

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incorporating new technologies which

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have some inherent risks uh we're going

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further away than you know

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than we've done in a long time in terms

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of distance from earth

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so the asteroid they've talked about

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the uncertainty in its mass and that

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drive system performance parameters

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launch date launch vehicle those are

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trades that that

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are also uncertain

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and then a real risk i think is the very

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ambitious schedule that that has been

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proposed uh concurrent technology

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development at the same time that you're

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designing the mission and the mission

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systems

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you've got to you've got to really be

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careful about what you're doing there so

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really i think mission success is going

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to depend on effective and very

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very very strong risk management

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so my message here is that i think that

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the industry team both industry academia

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and nasa that nasa has

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to make a broader

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community involvement of this mission i

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think will really be a go a long way

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towards minimizing that risk

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there's an extensive amount of

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experience in industry

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and from our current production programs

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on the commercial side as well as the

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the existing nasa programs that can be

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used to mitigate risks and i've listed

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really five key ones there that i'm

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going to talk a bit more about as we go

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through the presentation first of all

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using flight proven systems high

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heritage systems will that as your point

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of departure to have definitely reduces

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the risk on the system

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utilizing a

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a prime integrator if you will to

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integrate the solar electric propulsion

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technologies into the mission i i think

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is also has a lot of merit

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you can leverage the experience that the

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industry partners have

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to to get that system integrated and

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working right a lot of best practices to

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bring to bear

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launching on sls really increases your

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margins increased margin increases your

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uh your ability to handle unforeseen

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ben mentioned designing the system for

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reuse i think that's a really a really

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smart move

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it maximizes a return on investment no

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matter what you do this even trying to

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to drive costs down and be affordable

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this is going to be a very expensive

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investment for the country so reusing

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that system only makes sense and there's

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some things you can do early on when you

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do the design to to enhance that

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reusability

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and implement implementing an integrated

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gnc system uh into the uh

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into the autonomous rendezvous and

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docking portion make it all resident in

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one vehicle

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we think there's some real benefits to

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that many probably touch on that but in

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terms of testing seamless

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seams

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interface requirements of that type of

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thing it seems like a smarter way to go

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so

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the first topic heritage systems

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reducing development execution risk

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there's a lot of uh spacecraft knowledge

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uh in america in the industry uh we've

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we've been uh you know we produce

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spacecraft for it well basically entire

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industries depend on the spacecraft that

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we produce for example xm radio

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directv

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so the reliability

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and mission success requirements on

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those types of platforms

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are you know they're equally as

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important as they are for a mission of

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this magnitude as well so you've got a

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lot of flight proven design and

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qualification experience that a resident

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in the industry partners

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very established and repeatable

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processes and tools and and the

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personnel who know how to build these

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platforms that's a real key

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benefit that that could be brought to

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bear here on this on this program

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of integrated and well-exercised supply

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chain

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even though you're going to build just

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maybe one vehicle for this particular

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mission if you need spare parts you you

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have to do some some testing something

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that you hadn't foreseen if you can pull

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in that supply chain to get those parts

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or build up an engineering design unit

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and pretty quick time

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that's a real benefit as well

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once again 15-year lifetime for most of

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the commercial geocom platforms that are

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built out there if not longer

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operational envelopes and limits we know

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what the the space vehicle is designed

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for and and we've tested that and we see

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it happen in real in operational

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experience so we know how the vehicle is

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going to operate

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established launch vehicle and payload

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interfaces up to ten thousand kilogram

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uh payloads can be accommodated on most

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of these platforms i know adam said that

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the laurel platform can go a little bit

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higher so more mass is going to be you

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know that gives you that margin that

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you're going to need to be successful

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uh and you know you uh as you're

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designing the mission uh depending on

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the trades that say been alluded to

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whether you do a two-piece spacecraft or

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a monolithic spacecraft you can you can

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draw on the industries either their

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system subsystems or the entire platform

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for a turnkey solution

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it gives flexibility to nasa and really

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what that does it allows nasa to focus

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on the hard things that need to be

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developed the spacecraft's going to be

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it'll be a tough engineering challenge

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but getting those technologies done and

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getting them validated trl 6 and above

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in the time frame that we're talking

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about that's a big job and that way the

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i didn't do that i did not do that

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i'm not going to update firefox right

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okay

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chart

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uh integration experience for solar

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electric propulsion technologies

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there are lots of uh

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lots lots of uh use of scp in in today's

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uh

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geocom and other applications space

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mission markets

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um a lot you know with the advanced

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solar echo propulsion that's been talked

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about for this mission is quite a leap

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in terms of power both for the thrusters

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and for the solar rays but there's a lot

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of uh

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there's there's over many many years of

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operational experience out there

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operating these systems

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doing you know station keeping a geo or

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in the uh in the context of the vehicle

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that boeing has recently developed at

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702 sp it actually uses the uh

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the solar propulsion to actually to

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orbit raise now granted it takes a

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little bit longer to get on station but

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it really reduces your launch costs

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which is a real benefit point is there's

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a lot of experience on how to integrate

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step technology into into systems at an

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industry that could be applied here for

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nasa

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um

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lots of lessons learned from our

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experience in both production design and

286
00:09:26,150 --> 00:09:23,920
operations once again solid supplier

287
00:09:27,990 --> 00:09:26,160
relationships with with all the key

288
00:09:29,350 --> 00:09:28,000
producers

289
00:09:32,150 --> 00:09:29,360
some firms have indigenous solar

290
00:09:34,470 --> 00:09:32,160
reproduction tests and

291
00:09:36,870 --> 00:09:34,480
build facilities and capabilities that

292
00:09:39,110 --> 00:09:36,880
could be brought in state-of-the-art

293
00:09:40,550 --> 00:09:39,120
test equipment also exists

294
00:09:42,470 --> 00:09:40,560
once again the experience base is you

295
00:09:44,710 --> 00:09:42,480
know for for boeing anyhow it's well

296
00:09:47,030 --> 00:09:44,720
over 90 years of operational experience

297
00:09:48,790 --> 00:09:47,040
with step powered uh vehicles

298
00:09:51,030 --> 00:09:48,800
and there's you know the the ability to

299
00:09:52,870 --> 00:09:51,040
do low thrust trajectory design

300
00:09:55,110 --> 00:09:52,880
mission planning and the navigation

301
00:09:57,509 --> 00:09:55,120
expertise with that is also becoming

302
00:09:58,870 --> 00:09:57,519
more important and that can add to the

303
00:10:02,230 --> 00:09:58,880
mission success

304
00:10:07,829 --> 00:10:04,710
uh sls what a great asset to have for

305
00:10:09,750 --> 00:10:07,839
this mission um nasa is building the sls

306
00:10:12,230 --> 00:10:09,760
now uh they're actually ahead of

307
00:10:15,030 --> 00:10:12,240
schedule in many instances uh vehicles

308
00:10:16,190 --> 00:10:15,040
on on track to you know fly

309
00:10:19,030 --> 00:10:16,200
in the

310
00:10:20,630 --> 00:10:19,040
2017-2018 time frame

311
00:10:22,790 --> 00:10:20,640
that's really a

312
00:10:24,949 --> 00:10:22,800
fortuitous schedule coincidence that if

313
00:10:26,710 --> 00:10:24,959
you can launch on sls basically you get

314
00:10:28,630 --> 00:10:26,720
you get more mass

315
00:10:29,990 --> 00:10:28,640
you get you could possibly you

316
00:10:31,509 --> 00:10:30,000
demonstrate a gravity tractor

317
00:10:33,750 --> 00:10:31,519
demonstration deflection demonstration

318
00:10:36,150 --> 00:10:33,760
if you have a massive enough spacecraft

319
00:10:37,910 --> 00:10:36,160
you can launch on a direct injection

320
00:10:39,590 --> 00:10:37,920
trajectory to lunar gravity assist or

321
00:10:41,750 --> 00:10:39,600
straight to the target depending on what

322
00:10:43,190 --> 00:10:41,760
the target is it eliminates that spiral

323
00:10:44,790 --> 00:10:43,200
out phase and saves you about two years

324
00:10:46,310 --> 00:10:44,800
on the overall mission duration or one

325
00:10:47,990 --> 00:10:46,320
to three years depending on once again

326
00:10:50,470 --> 00:10:48,000
where you're going and how big it is

327
00:10:52,069 --> 00:10:50,480
but the additional sep technology

328
00:10:53,750 --> 00:10:52,079
technology maturation schedule that the

329
00:10:54,630 --> 00:10:53,760
sls provides i think is a real benefit

330
00:10:56,949 --> 00:10:54,640
too

331
00:10:57,670 --> 00:10:56,959
if we push back the notion launch date

332
00:10:59,590 --> 00:10:57,680
two

333
00:11:01,590 --> 00:10:59,600
when sls is flying a block block one

334
00:11:03,430 --> 00:11:01,600
configuration once again that gives

335
00:11:05,670 --> 00:11:03,440
the technology folks a little bit extra

336
00:11:07,750 --> 00:11:05,680
time to get the uh to get the step up to

337
00:11:09,190 --> 00:11:07,760
the right trl and a little bit of extra

338
00:11:14,069 --> 00:11:09,200
schedule margin is always good when

339
00:11:18,630 --> 00:11:16,150
designing for usability also maximizes

340
00:11:19,590 --> 00:11:18,640
the return of investment for nasa

341
00:11:20,870 --> 00:11:19,600
um

342
00:11:22,630 --> 00:11:20,880
after the

343
00:11:24,389 --> 00:11:22,640
asteroid retrieval mission is complete

344
00:11:26,069 --> 00:11:24,399
there's probably still

345
00:11:28,389 --> 00:11:26,079
five to ten years of remaining lifetime

346
00:11:30,230 --> 00:11:28,399
on the vehicle if not more

347
00:11:34,150 --> 00:11:30,240
you've got 50 kilowatts at beginning of

348
00:11:35,670 --> 00:11:34,160
life on station and translunar space now

349
00:11:38,150 --> 00:11:35,680
what a great asset once again to have

350
00:11:39,750 --> 00:11:38,160
for any future exploration architecture

351
00:11:41,590 --> 00:11:39,760
pieces that come out there

352
00:11:42,550 --> 00:11:41,600
that either need a tug or just a power

353
00:11:44,470 --> 00:11:42,560
supply

354
00:11:47,030 --> 00:11:44,480
or a lot of the other capabilities that

355
00:11:48,630 --> 00:11:47,040
the arm will have inherent in its design

356
00:11:50,949 --> 00:11:48,640
you could also refuel it if you designed

357
00:11:52,310 --> 00:11:50,959
that early on that once again sls can

358
00:11:54,550 --> 00:11:52,320
bring up quite a large quantity

359
00:11:57,030 --> 00:11:54,560
propellant to translunar space to refuel

360
00:11:57,990 --> 00:11:57,040
it or if it during the operational mode

361
00:11:59,670 --> 00:11:58,000
it can get back to earth you could

362
00:12:00,949 --> 00:11:59,680
refuel it even closer

363
00:12:02,389 --> 00:12:00,959
but there's a lot of applications that

364
00:12:03,910 --> 00:12:02,399
you could have there so

365
00:12:04,790 --> 00:12:03,920
thinking about it in terms of reuses

366
00:12:06,310 --> 00:12:04,800
should be

367
00:12:10,470 --> 00:12:06,320
one of the guiding principles in terms

368
00:12:13,829 --> 00:12:10,480
of the system engineering early on

369
00:12:16,389 --> 00:12:13,839
and integrated autonomous rendezvous

370
00:12:17,990 --> 00:12:16,399
capabilities into the overall spacecraft

371
00:12:20,310 --> 00:12:18,000
simplifies the design and operations of

372
00:12:22,069 --> 00:12:20,320
the mission the integrated system that

373
00:12:24,150 --> 00:12:22,079
has both air and d and terrain relative

374
00:12:25,750 --> 00:12:24,160
navigation sensors on it we feel is the

375
00:12:28,790 --> 00:12:25,760
lowest risk approach and having those

376
00:12:31,110 --> 00:12:28,800
integrated into the the flight system

377
00:12:32,550 --> 00:12:31,120
it basically decouples the the arnd

378
00:12:34,389 --> 00:12:32,560
stuff

379
00:12:36,829 --> 00:12:34,399
which is very relatively mature from the

380
00:12:39,829 --> 00:12:36,839
new the new technology propulsion

381
00:12:41,269 --> 00:12:39,839
development better integrates the gnc

382
00:12:42,790 --> 00:12:41,279
system performance overall because you

383
00:12:44,470 --> 00:12:42,800
don't have two interfaces you don't have

384
00:12:45,750 --> 00:12:44,480
two computers talking to each other

385
00:12:47,590 --> 00:12:45,760
streamlines the

386
00:12:49,670 --> 00:12:47,600
getting ready to fly simplifies

387
00:12:51,190 --> 00:12:49,680
interfaces and

388
00:12:54,069 --> 00:12:51,200
potentially you could use the sensors to

389
00:12:55,509 --> 00:12:54,079
do both both the the the tracking far

390
00:12:56,710 --> 00:12:55,519
away and in

391
00:12:58,790 --> 00:12:56,720
close

392
00:13:00,069 --> 00:12:58,800
and with that i will turn that over to

393
00:13:01,509 --> 00:13:00,079
manny and let him tell you a little bit

394
00:13:14,870 --> 00:13:01,519
more about

395
00:13:19,110 --> 00:13:16,790
okay so

396
00:13:20,949 --> 00:13:19,120
quickly

397
00:13:23,350 --> 00:13:20,959
we have the experience from the orbital

398
00:13:26,710 --> 00:13:23,360
express program back in 2007 of having

399
00:13:28,470 --> 00:13:26,720
flown optical navigation systems uh

400
00:13:29,750 --> 00:13:28,480
there's a picture of what we flew back

401
00:13:32,230 --> 00:13:29,760
in uh

402
00:13:35,350 --> 00:13:32,240
back back there six six years ago on

403
00:13:36,949 --> 00:13:35,360
board the astro spacecraft completed uh

404
00:13:39,269 --> 00:13:36,959
six autonomous rendezvous and docking

405
00:13:40,710 --> 00:13:39,279
scenarios uh and

406
00:13:43,030 --> 00:13:40,720
one point here which is not that

407
00:13:45,910 --> 00:13:43,040
commonly known although we use the

408
00:13:47,590 --> 00:13:45,920
nasa avgs system for corridor approach

409
00:13:50,790 --> 00:13:47,600
actually all the acquisition and track

410
00:13:52,790 --> 00:13:50,800
was using optical navigation from

411
00:13:53,990 --> 00:13:52,800
hundreds of kilometers on

412
00:13:55,790 --> 00:13:54,000
all the way in

413
00:13:58,150 --> 00:13:55,800
to capture

414
00:13:59,990 --> 00:13:58,160
contemporaneously with the the nasa

415
00:14:01,509 --> 00:14:00,000
system so just wanted to get that out

416
00:14:03,590 --> 00:14:01,519
there to make sure everybody under

417
00:14:04,550 --> 00:14:03,600
understands that so fast forward to

418
00:14:06,710 --> 00:14:04,560
today

419
00:14:08,389 --> 00:14:06,720
we have two different systems that uh

420
00:14:10,470 --> 00:14:08,399
one one in particular that we are

421
00:14:13,269 --> 00:14:10,480
developing for flight that being for

422
00:14:15,030 --> 00:14:13,279
commercial crew we call that vesta

423
00:14:16,710 --> 00:14:15,040
that is allowing us to do completely

424
00:14:19,189 --> 00:14:16,720
autonomous rendezvous

425
00:14:20,150 --> 00:14:19,199
and and docking

426
00:14:22,150 --> 00:14:20,160
we see

427
00:14:25,430 --> 00:14:22,160
really good applicability of a similar

428
00:14:28,870 --> 00:14:25,440
system for uh for uh asteroid and

429
00:14:31,110 --> 00:14:28,880
planetary type type missions as well so

430
00:14:32,470 --> 00:14:31,120
kind of put together sort of a notional

431
00:14:33,910 --> 00:14:32,480
con ops here and i don't have time to

432
00:14:36,550 --> 00:14:33,920
brief this in

433
00:14:39,430 --> 00:14:36,560
in detail but uh probably one of the

434
00:14:41,110 --> 00:14:39,440
important takeaways here is that uh so

435
00:14:42,829 --> 00:14:41,120
first of all a lot of similarity in our

436
00:14:43,829 --> 00:14:42,839
thinking in in

437
00:14:45,750 --> 00:14:43,839
terms and

438
00:14:48,470 --> 00:14:45,760
from what john brophy was saying earlier

439
00:14:50,230 --> 00:14:48,480
in terms of visible sensors and and

440
00:14:51,910 --> 00:14:50,240
ladar type sensors

441
00:14:53,670 --> 00:14:51,920
definitely having something that gives

442
00:14:56,310 --> 00:14:53,680
you long range track

443
00:14:59,350 --> 00:14:56,320
really good precision

444
00:15:01,590 --> 00:14:59,360
vision and feature identification in

445
00:15:04,230 --> 00:15:01,600
in sunlight is is excellent and the

446
00:15:06,389 --> 00:15:04,240
lidar sensor to give you range and and

447
00:15:08,790 --> 00:15:06,399
3d shape very important the thing we'd

448
00:15:10,389 --> 00:15:08,800
like to add into the mix there is long

449
00:15:12,069 --> 00:15:10,399
wave infrared

450
00:15:14,310 --> 00:15:12,079
i think we were among the first if not

451
00:15:16,710 --> 00:15:14,320
the first to fly an lwir sensor on

452
00:15:18,470 --> 00:15:16,720
orbital express and since then uh lots

453
00:15:20,310 --> 00:15:18,480
of folks are using them for autonomous

454
00:15:23,110 --> 00:15:20,320
rendezvous we'd like to throw that in

455
00:15:24,550 --> 00:15:23,120
here as as a suggestion for

456
00:15:26,470 --> 00:15:24,560
uh for

457
00:15:28,870 --> 00:15:26,480
this mission arm as well

458
00:15:30,629 --> 00:15:28,880
the the thing that that brings to you is

459
00:15:33,749 --> 00:15:30,639
is really good solar immunity sun

460
00:15:35,990 --> 00:15:33,759
immunity and uh ability to see in uh

461
00:15:38,230 --> 00:15:36,000
into dark shadows uh so it helps with

462
00:15:39,590 --> 00:15:38,240
shape determination so if you look

463
00:15:41,749 --> 00:15:39,600
through this you know using visible

464
00:15:43,829 --> 00:15:41,759
sensors to acquire at long range and

465
00:15:46,550 --> 00:15:43,839
then coming on stepping on in and then

466
00:15:48,949 --> 00:15:46,560
using these disparate sensors fusing the

467
00:15:50,870 --> 00:15:48,959
data to do the asteroid characterization

468
00:15:53,670 --> 00:15:50,880
tasks and and then to support the

469
00:15:55,030 --> 00:15:53,680
capture the d spin and then also the

470
00:15:56,790 --> 00:15:55,040
capability of

471
00:15:59,189 --> 00:15:56,800
of dual use on these sensors for

472
00:16:01,189 --> 00:15:59,199
inertial nav uh versus uh versus

473
00:16:03,350 --> 00:16:01,199
relative nav

474
00:16:06,069 --> 00:16:03,360
and just a quick one on the on the

475
00:16:07,350 --> 00:16:06,079
benefits uh i think i said some of this

476
00:16:08,310 --> 00:16:07,360
as to why

477
00:16:10,470 --> 00:16:08,320
a long

478
00:16:12,550 --> 00:16:10,480
long range or long wave infrared camera

479
00:16:13,590 --> 00:16:12,560
is uh is good and i think gosh i

480
00:16:16,150 --> 00:16:13,600
finished weight i feel like it's

481
00:16:17,110 --> 00:16:16,160
something else i should have said

482
00:16:18,949 --> 00:16:17,120
all right

483
00:16:20,629 --> 00:16:18,959
we have time for a question but well

484
00:16:22,230 --> 00:16:20,639
thank you and again

485
00:16:24,069 --> 00:16:22,240
we don't have type of questions so we'll

486
00:16:31,110 --> 00:16:24,079
catch them at the end

487
00:16:37,030 --> 00:16:34,230
all right we're cooking right along here

488
00:16:38,790 --> 00:16:37,040
our next speaker is john ringelberg he's

489
00:16:40,230 --> 00:16:38,800
a senior staff engineer at lockheed

490
00:16:41,829 --> 00:16:40,240
martin denver

491
00:16:43,749 --> 00:16:41,839
working in the civil space advanced

492
00:16:45,509 --> 00:16:43,759
programs group he's the principal

493
00:16:47,269 --> 00:16:45,519
investigator for an irat effort

494
00:16:49,670 --> 00:16:47,279
advancing autonomous rendezvous

495
00:16:51,430 --> 00:16:49,680
proximity operations docking and landing

496
00:16:52,870 --> 00:16:51,440
technologies

497
00:16:54,949 --> 00:16:52,880
his presentation will provide an

498
00:16:56,629 --> 00:16:54,959
overview of integrated sensing systems

499
00:16:58,470 --> 00:16:56,639
from previous missions with direct

500
00:17:00,470 --> 00:16:58,480
correlation to arm

501
00:17:02,150 --> 00:17:00,480
particular technologies for asteroid

502
00:17:03,990 --> 00:17:02,160
relative nav and characterization will

503
00:17:05,750 --> 00:17:04,000
be highlighted and a brief summary of

504
00:17:08,390 --> 00:17:05,760
solar electric propulsion heritage and

505
00:17:11,270 --> 00:17:08,400
technology will also be provided

506
00:17:12,309 --> 00:17:11,280
thanks john thanks um continuing on that

507
00:17:14,549 --> 00:17:12,319
theme

508
00:17:16,870 --> 00:17:14,559
kind of the last few presentations of

509
00:17:18,549 --> 00:17:16,880
trying to leverage uh

510
00:17:20,789 --> 00:17:18,559
some of the work that's been done on

511
00:17:21,909 --> 00:17:20,799
either previous programs or on current

512
00:17:26,630 --> 00:17:21,919
programs

513
00:17:28,390 --> 00:17:26,640
is osiris-rex which is

514
00:17:30,830 --> 00:17:28,400
which is a mission

515
00:17:33,350 --> 00:17:30,840
lockheed has a strong role in but uh

516
00:17:34,630 --> 00:17:33,360
goddard leading this

517
00:17:36,070 --> 00:17:34,640
there's a lot of things that are being

518
00:17:38,470 --> 00:17:36,080
done on on

519
00:17:40,390 --> 00:17:38,480
osiris-rex that probably are very

520
00:17:42,230 --> 00:17:40,400
applicable to

521
00:17:44,070 --> 00:17:42,240
what's what's going to happen for what

522
00:17:45,190 --> 00:17:44,080
you need to do for the asteroid redirect

523
00:17:47,110 --> 00:17:45,200
mission

524
00:17:49,270 --> 00:17:47,120
there's particular areas that

525
00:17:51,430 --> 00:17:49,280
that it's a much bigger asteroid that

526
00:17:53,669 --> 00:17:51,440
osiris-rex is going to

527
00:17:55,350 --> 00:17:53,679
they're going to have a lot more time

528
00:17:57,669 --> 00:17:55,360
most likely

529
00:17:59,909 --> 00:17:57,679
station keeping

530
00:18:01,190 --> 00:17:59,919
mapping and characterizing the asteroid

531
00:18:02,870 --> 00:18:01,200
but there's still a lot of the

532
00:18:05,110 --> 00:18:02,880
capabilities particularly that are going

533
00:18:06,549 --> 00:18:05,120
into a size 4x that you can extend and

534
00:18:09,590 --> 00:18:06,559
apply to

535
00:18:11,909 --> 00:18:09,600
the asteroid redirect mission

536
00:18:14,470 --> 00:18:11,919
both both optical and and what was

537
00:18:16,310 --> 00:18:14,480
mentioned earlier lidar lidar usage for

538
00:18:17,590 --> 00:18:16,320
for osiris-rex and mapping there's

539
00:18:19,110 --> 00:18:17,600
there's there's

540
00:18:21,110 --> 00:18:19,120
some areas particularly for the optical

541
00:18:24,390 --> 00:18:21,120
navigation that we're doing some work

542
00:18:26,950 --> 00:18:24,400
that can improve the the resolution for

543
00:18:28,630 --> 00:18:26,960
or the accuracy for your targeting for

544
00:18:30,950 --> 00:18:28,640
what osiris-rex does which is the

545
00:18:32,549 --> 00:18:30,960
approach and sample capture contact and

546
00:18:34,230 --> 00:18:32,559
sample capture

547
00:18:35,430 --> 00:18:34,240
that's extensible whether it's whether

548
00:18:37,669 --> 00:18:35,440
it's the uh

549
00:18:39,430 --> 00:18:37,679
the bag capture or like a more of a

550
00:18:41,110 --> 00:18:39,440
robotic capture a close close-in

551
00:18:43,110 --> 00:18:41,120
approach such as that that ben talked

552
00:18:45,350 --> 00:18:43,120
about

553
00:18:48,950 --> 00:18:45,360
another mission

554
00:18:50,870 --> 00:18:48,960
further in the past but similar

555
00:18:53,029 --> 00:18:50,880
type operations

556
00:18:54,870 --> 00:18:53,039
wanted to mention the xss-11 mission

557
00:18:56,390 --> 00:18:54,880
which most of you probably are familiar

558
00:18:59,270 --> 00:18:56,400
with maybe not everybody but this

559
00:19:02,710 --> 00:18:59,280
mission was a afro mission

560
00:19:05,029 --> 00:19:02,720
very successful didn't do capture or

561
00:19:06,870 --> 00:19:05,039
contact but did a lot of proximity

562
00:19:08,870 --> 00:19:06,880
operations

563
00:19:10,950 --> 00:19:08,880
with with different non-cooperative

564
00:19:14,150 --> 00:19:10,960
targets and that's one of the key things

565
00:19:15,909 --> 00:19:14,160
that i wanted to point out here was

566
00:19:17,830 --> 00:19:15,919
what the asteroid redirect mission is

567
00:19:19,430 --> 00:19:17,840
going to do there's there's a need for

568
00:19:21,750 --> 00:19:19,440
being able to go up something you know

569
00:19:23,110 --> 00:19:21,760
almost nothing about you don't know the

570
00:19:24,630 --> 00:19:23,120
surface features you don't know it's

571
00:19:26,070 --> 00:19:24,640
spin rates you don't know how it's

572
00:19:29,430 --> 00:19:26,080
moving

573
00:19:31,590 --> 00:19:29,440
so missions like this

574
00:19:33,830 --> 00:19:31,600
lessons learned from that and work since

575
00:19:35,909 --> 00:19:33,840
that can be used to apply for going up

576
00:19:37,590 --> 00:19:35,919
to a non-cooperative target

577
00:19:39,510 --> 00:19:37,600
performing proximity operations

578
00:19:41,990 --> 00:19:39,520
characterizing and the other part of it

579
00:19:44,470 --> 00:19:42,000
is is the safe operations and proximity

580
00:19:45,909 --> 00:19:44,480
to to your target making sure your

581
00:19:48,549 --> 00:19:45,919
there was there was a lot of work done

582
00:19:51,350 --> 00:19:48,559
on this that that was

583
00:19:54,230 --> 00:19:51,360
a good bit of autonomous where it had to

584
00:19:56,070 --> 00:19:54,240
plan your maneuvers ahead of time on how

585
00:19:57,909 --> 00:19:56,080
what's your natural motion and force

586
00:20:00,070 --> 00:19:57,919
motion well for the for the asteroid

587
00:20:01,590 --> 00:20:00,080
mission for force motion circumnav

588
00:20:03,029 --> 00:20:01,600
around where on your target how are you

589
00:20:06,549 --> 00:20:03,039
going to do that safely how you plan

590
00:20:08,310 --> 00:20:06,559
ahead and this being so far out

591
00:20:11,110 --> 00:20:08,320
using using things you've done in the

592
00:20:13,029 --> 00:20:11,120
past to be able to build on those and do

593
00:20:15,110 --> 00:20:13,039
your safe operations in close proximity

594
00:20:17,590 --> 00:20:15,120
to a target that's so far away that you

595
00:20:20,950 --> 00:20:17,600
don't have may not have the continuous

596
00:20:22,549 --> 00:20:20,960
communication with

597
00:20:24,070 --> 00:20:22,559
another area that that we've been

598
00:20:26,789 --> 00:20:24,080
working on um

599
00:20:29,029 --> 00:20:26,799
kind of extensive extensible to this

600
00:20:31,190 --> 00:20:29,039
doing different irad and c-rad work

601
00:20:33,270 --> 00:20:31,200
we've we've done um

602
00:20:35,990 --> 00:20:33,280
is is particularly with the optical nav

603
00:20:38,549 --> 00:20:36,000
that was mentioned earlier as as

604
00:20:40,789 --> 00:20:38,559
one of the key features that's needed

605
00:20:43,590 --> 00:20:40,799
for approaching

606
00:20:46,149 --> 00:20:43,600
the asteroid whatever the arm target is

607
00:20:48,310 --> 00:20:46,159
we've done a lot of work in this area

608
00:20:50,070 --> 00:20:48,320
there's also a lot of other areas other

609
00:20:51,350 --> 00:20:50,080
people doing work in this area but we're

610
00:20:53,029 --> 00:20:51,360
kind of advancing this is something

611
00:20:55,830 --> 00:20:53,039
that's probably going to help out

612
00:20:56,870 --> 00:20:55,840
osiris-rex to some extent as far as the

613
00:20:59,190 --> 00:20:56,880
precision

614
00:21:01,430 --> 00:20:59,200
approach capability

615
00:21:03,270 --> 00:21:01,440
but using natural feature tracking to to

616
00:21:05,510 --> 00:21:03,280
map the surface

617
00:21:11,909 --> 00:21:05,520
and to plan out your approach for the

618
00:21:15,590 --> 00:21:13,190
another area

619
00:21:17,510 --> 00:21:15,600
our coherent technologies area

620
00:21:18,710 --> 00:21:17,520
disciplines a lot of work on the the

621
00:21:20,870 --> 00:21:18,720
laser

622
00:21:23,990 --> 00:21:20,880
or lidar type

623
00:21:25,350 --> 00:21:24,000
mapping and characterization uh

624
00:21:27,750 --> 00:21:25,360
two different methods we mentioned in

625
00:21:30,470 --> 00:21:27,760
the nrfi response

626
00:21:32,470 --> 00:21:30,480
that can be combined for particularly

627
00:21:34,710 --> 00:21:32,480
used for characterizing asteroids so you

628
00:21:35,669 --> 00:21:34,720
understand it for for the approach

629
00:21:37,669 --> 00:21:35,679
and and

630
00:21:39,350 --> 00:21:37,679
and capture part of it digital

631
00:21:41,510 --> 00:21:39,360
holographic imaging

632
00:21:43,909 --> 00:21:41,520
gives you some work we've done we've

633
00:21:45,270 --> 00:21:43,919
tested out coherent our coherent group

634
00:21:47,190 --> 00:21:45,280
does a lot of work on the terrestrial

635
00:21:48,549 --> 00:21:47,200
but also applying at the space

636
00:21:50,390 --> 00:21:48,559
applications

637
00:21:52,149 --> 00:21:50,400
um using that that's going to be

638
00:21:54,470 --> 00:21:52,159
important to characterize the asteroid

639
00:21:56,390 --> 00:21:54,480
as as you approach it and to understand

640
00:21:57,270 --> 00:21:56,400
what its motions are before you capture

641
00:22:00,230 --> 00:21:57,280
it

642
00:22:02,630 --> 00:22:00,240
another another area is the polar metric

643
00:22:04,230 --> 00:22:02,640
sensing hardware to say for asteroid

644
00:22:05,669 --> 00:22:04,240
composition mass you're going to need to

645
00:22:07,270 --> 00:22:05,679
understand the surface before you go up

646
00:22:09,190 --> 00:22:07,280
and grab it you're going to want to

647
00:22:11,350 --> 00:22:09,200
understand that anyway depending on what

648
00:22:13,669 --> 00:22:11,360
your which your capture and grab hold of

649
00:22:15,270 --> 00:22:13,679
technique is that whether that's robotic

650
00:22:17,029 --> 00:22:15,280
particularly if it's robotic you're

651
00:22:19,029 --> 00:22:17,039
going to understand that surface to the

652
00:22:23,990 --> 00:22:19,039
greatest extent possible before you try

653
00:22:27,029 --> 00:22:25,590
and then i also wanted to mention here

654
00:22:29,510 --> 00:22:27,039
um some of you familiar with there's a

655
00:22:32,230 --> 00:22:29,520
facility we have in denver called our

656
00:22:34,630 --> 00:22:32,240
space operation simulation center

657
00:22:36,789 --> 00:22:34,640
this is a large facility and that's not

658
00:22:37,669 --> 00:22:36,799
a real asteroid inside the sosc but it's

659
00:22:44,789 --> 00:22:37,679
a

660
00:22:46,870 --> 00:22:44,799
the need to

661
00:22:48,310 --> 00:22:46,880
if it helps the mission you could put an

662
00:22:50,470 --> 00:22:48,320
asteroid mounted

663
00:22:54,230 --> 00:22:50,480
inside there that's a seven meter

664
00:22:55,830 --> 00:22:54,240
correlated to the size of the ssc but

665
00:22:57,750 --> 00:22:55,840
that's going to be a key part i think of

666
00:22:58,870 --> 00:22:57,760
this mission kind of reducing the risk

667
00:23:01,029 --> 00:22:58,880
of some of the

668
00:23:03,510 --> 00:23:01,039
the technologies that make this a

669
00:23:05,909 --> 00:23:03,520
difficult mission how can you

670
00:23:07,909 --> 00:23:05,919
you want to ground test them in the best

671
00:23:11,110 --> 00:23:07,919
environment possible or most realistic

672
00:23:14,149 --> 00:23:11,120
flight like environment is possible so

673
00:23:17,190 --> 00:23:14,159
using facilities like sosc to test out

674
00:23:19,110 --> 00:23:17,200
those technologies for for the robotic

675
00:23:23,510 --> 00:23:19,120
mission to the asteroid approach and

676
00:23:28,390 --> 00:23:25,750
one thing i

677
00:23:29,909 --> 00:23:28,400
in our rfi response we covered the the

678
00:23:32,230 --> 00:23:29,919
sensing systems

679
00:23:34,230 --> 00:23:32,240
primarily and i wanted to focus on that

680
00:23:37,110 --> 00:23:34,240
during the few minutes here

681
00:23:38,630 --> 00:23:37,120
but also we we discussed scp a little

682
00:23:41,269 --> 00:23:38,640
bit at um

683
00:23:43,510 --> 00:23:41,279
um brian dempsey a guy at lockheed

684
00:23:45,669 --> 00:23:43,520
martin did our input for that rfi

685
00:23:47,269 --> 00:23:45,679
response and really we kind of covered

686
00:23:48,870 --> 00:23:47,279
what's already been covered some of the

687
00:23:51,110 --> 00:23:48,880
other presentations here the four key

688
00:23:53,590 --> 00:23:51,120
areas that need to be

689
00:23:55,669 --> 00:23:53,600
addressed to make to enable the scp for

690
00:23:57,350 --> 00:23:55,679
for this mission um thrusters the hall

691
00:23:59,430 --> 00:23:57,360
current thrusters

692
00:24:01,669 --> 00:23:59,440
seems to be the focus for most everyone

693
00:24:04,710 --> 00:24:01,679
here that's provide good

694
00:24:06,390 --> 00:24:04,720
high power to thrust to power ratio

695
00:24:07,909 --> 00:24:06,400
another point out is the power

696
00:24:10,310 --> 00:24:07,919
processing units are a very mature

697
00:24:12,950 --> 00:24:10,320
technology for for hall thrusters

698
00:24:15,269 --> 00:24:12,960
another area solar rays i was mentioned

699
00:24:16,390 --> 00:24:15,279
several times a lot of

700
00:24:18,310 --> 00:24:16,400
heritage

701
00:24:19,510 --> 00:24:18,320
and experience in industry that can

702
00:24:20,710 --> 00:24:19,520
support

703
00:24:22,470 --> 00:24:20,720
um what's

704
00:24:24,950 --> 00:24:22,480
what's what's what's needed to be done

705
00:24:26,390 --> 00:24:24,960
for the for the arm mission a lot of

706
00:24:27,909 --> 00:24:26,400
experience of that whether it's space

707
00:24:29,350 --> 00:24:27,919
station or all the missions you see

708
00:24:31,510 --> 00:24:29,360
listed there

709
00:24:33,830 --> 00:24:31,520
uh and then the same thing with we're

710
00:24:35,909 --> 00:24:33,840
going to xenon tanks

711
00:24:38,310 --> 00:24:35,919
we

712
00:24:39,909 --> 00:24:38,320
discussed a little bit in our response

713
00:24:41,669 --> 00:24:39,919
there is a trade whether you want to do

714
00:24:43,269 --> 00:24:41,679
a single large tank versus multiple

715
00:24:46,470 --> 00:24:43,279
small tanks there's advantages and

716
00:24:48,710 --> 00:24:46,480
disadvantages to each

717
00:24:50,630 --> 00:24:48,720
single large tank be less complex system

718
00:24:52,070 --> 00:24:50,640
but there's the smaller tanks probably

719
00:24:54,310 --> 00:24:52,080
have more applicability to other

720
00:24:55,269 --> 00:24:54,320
missions so there's more extensibility

721
00:24:57,029 --> 00:24:55,279
to

722
00:25:00,470 --> 00:24:57,039
other

723
00:25:04,710 --> 00:25:02,549
um continuing with the scp this is the

724
00:25:06,470 --> 00:25:04,720
last chart actually um

725
00:25:08,070 --> 00:25:06,480
one of the key things also going to be

726
00:25:10,070 --> 00:25:08,080
for the electric propulsion system is

727
00:25:12,789 --> 00:25:10,080
the integration and validation of the

728
00:25:14,870 --> 00:25:12,799
entire system um

729
00:25:16,230 --> 00:25:14,880
mentioned here some there is i think

730
00:25:17,750 --> 00:25:16,240
last presentation mentioned a lot

731
00:25:20,630 --> 00:25:17,760
there's a lot of experience actually

732
00:25:23,029 --> 00:25:20,640
more than you would expect in scp areas

733
00:25:29,590 --> 00:25:26,390
our the aehf mission um was a good

734
00:25:31,110 --> 00:25:29,600
demonstration of how you would use solar

735
00:25:32,630 --> 00:25:31,120
propulsion to raise it raise an orbit of

736
00:25:33,909 --> 00:25:32,640
a vehicle

737
00:25:36,149 --> 00:25:33,919
um

738
00:25:38,070 --> 00:25:36,159
and then some other areas the

739
00:25:41,269 --> 00:25:38,080
we there's been plenty of flight

740
00:25:42,950 --> 00:25:41,279
experience with uh with a 4.5 kilowatt

741
00:25:44,789 --> 00:25:42,960
hall thruster systems getting getting

742
00:25:46,310 --> 00:25:44,799
larger into the kill into the thruster

743
00:25:47,990 --> 00:25:46,320
systems

744
00:25:50,070 --> 00:25:48,000
um and then we've actually worked done

745
00:25:55,990 --> 00:25:50,080
some work developing even bigger

746
00:25:56,000 --> 00:26:00,950
i did i catch us up there that was great

747
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:06,630
and that's it thanks

748
00:26:15,110 --> 00:26:08,310
all right so we're gonna we're gonna

749
00:26:25,430 --> 00:26:16,630
wake up

750
00:26:29,510 --> 00:26:26,789
all right we've had quite a few

751
00:26:31,830 --> 00:26:29,520
questions coming from virtually

752
00:26:33,830 --> 00:26:31,840
from our listeners i'm trying to see if

753
00:26:35,269 --> 00:26:33,840
there's one from a recent one there was

754
00:26:36,789 --> 00:26:35,279
a lot of discussion about using

755
00:26:38,630 --> 00:26:36,799
electromagnetism

756
00:26:40,070 --> 00:26:38,640
but that's probably a longer discussion

757
00:26:41,669 --> 00:26:40,080
because there's been three or four

758
00:26:42,470 --> 00:26:41,679
things come in about that

759
00:26:44,310 --> 00:26:42,480
um

760
00:26:46,310 --> 00:26:44,320
so here was a question on a recent one

761
00:26:48,950 --> 00:26:46,320
about robotic capture being vulnerable

762
00:26:50,549 --> 00:26:48,960
to surface dust and or shorting the sep

763
00:26:52,950 --> 00:26:50,559
thrusters and that came in after the

764
00:26:59,909 --> 00:26:52,960
goddard presentation you want to address

765
00:27:05,350 --> 00:27:01,830
the question was about dust and the

766
00:27:08,950 --> 00:27:06,789
well hopefully the dust doesn't get all

767
00:27:11,590 --> 00:27:08,960
around to the sep thrusters but back in

768
00:27:13,110 --> 00:27:11,600
constellation days we

769
00:27:14,950 --> 00:27:13,120
uh built a

770
00:27:17,510 --> 00:27:14,960
chamber at goddard

771
00:27:19,909 --> 00:27:17,520
to specifically either rain down dust or

772
00:27:21,830 --> 00:27:19,919
simulated regolith on mechanisms or have

773
00:27:27,190 --> 00:27:21,840
it

774
00:27:29,190 --> 00:27:27,200
only to do

775
00:27:32,549 --> 00:27:29,200
particle redistribution analysis which

776
00:27:34,549 --> 00:27:32,559
we hone for hubble space telescope

777
00:27:36,310 --> 00:27:34,559
eba operations where we were very

778
00:27:38,630 --> 00:27:36,320
contamination sensitive

779
00:27:40,870 --> 00:27:38,640
but specifically for the work that was

780
00:27:43,669 --> 00:27:40,880
going to be done with stuff driving

781
00:27:45,669 --> 00:27:43,679
around and walking around on the moon

782
00:27:47,909 --> 00:27:45,679
we had this chamber available so yes

783
00:27:51,110 --> 00:27:47,919
that is a real issue whoever sent that

784
00:27:52,630 --> 00:27:51,120
in as a very observant questioner

785
00:27:58,950 --> 00:27:52,640
and we've got facilities in place that

786
00:28:02,389 --> 00:28:00,230
good point good point a lot of

787
00:28:05,269 --> 00:28:02,399
operational experience on mars

788
00:28:06,549 --> 00:28:05,279
from our friends uh who are up there now

789
00:28:08,789 --> 00:28:06,559
driving around

790
00:28:09,990 --> 00:28:08,799
yeah good point brian

791
00:28:11,590 --> 00:28:10,000
we'll hold do you have something that's

792
00:28:13,430 --> 00:28:11,600
pressing otherwise i'd like to go to the

793
00:28:16,389 --> 00:28:13,440
next presentation but we'll get back to

794
00:28:19,269 --> 00:28:16,399
a lot of the questions

795
00:28:21,110 --> 00:28:19,279
as we go on our next presenter is

796
00:28:23,909 --> 00:28:21,120
virtual

797
00:28:26,070 --> 00:28:23,919
jonathan roble from honeybee robotics

798
00:28:27,990 --> 00:28:26,080
jonathan works there in the robotic

799
00:28:29,190 --> 00:28:28,000
spacecraft mechanisms corporation in

800
00:28:31,669 --> 00:28:29,200
longmont

801
00:28:33,430 --> 00:28:31,679
colorado honeybee develops technology

802
00:28:35,110 --> 00:28:33,440
and products for next-gen

803
00:28:38,870 --> 00:28:35,120
advanced robotic and spacecraft missions

804
00:28:40,630 --> 00:28:38,880
for nasa dod academia and industry

805
00:28:42,710 --> 00:28:40,640
jonathan will discuss several enabling

806
00:28:44,710 --> 00:28:42,720
component technologies for asteroid

807
00:28:46,470 --> 00:28:44,720
rendezvous proximity operations

808
00:28:47,909 --> 00:28:46,480
characterization and capture as well as

809
00:28:50,389 --> 00:28:47,919
technology

810
00:28:52,389 --> 00:28:50,399
can enable retrieval of a portion of the

811
00:28:55,190 --> 00:28:52,399
asteroids on the surface

812
00:28:57,590 --> 00:28:55,200
jonathan are you out there

813
00:29:00,950 --> 00:28:59,909
you here hear me all right yes

814
00:29:04,070 --> 00:29:00,960
thank you

815
00:29:05,669 --> 00:29:04,080
introduction i appreciate the

816
00:29:07,029 --> 00:29:05,679
opportunity to present the synthesis

817
00:29:08,870 --> 00:29:07,039
workshop

818
00:29:10,950 --> 00:29:08,880
uh like you said i'd like to just cover

819
00:29:12,630 --> 00:29:10,960
some of honeybees technologies that can

820
00:29:14,870 --> 00:29:12,640
contribute to asteroid redirection

821
00:29:16,470 --> 00:29:14,880
systems

822
00:29:18,149 --> 00:29:16,480
for background

823
00:29:20,470 --> 00:29:18,159
just like to say honeybee robotics is

824
00:29:23,269 --> 00:29:20,480
founded in 1983 has been developing

825
00:29:24,549 --> 00:29:23,279
spacecraft mechanisms and systems for 30

826
00:29:26,310 --> 00:29:24,559
years

827
00:29:28,230 --> 00:29:26,320
we consider our participation in nasa

828
00:29:29,990 --> 00:29:28,240
missions a key aspect of our business

829
00:29:33,269 --> 00:29:30,000
and take pride in the performance of our

830
00:29:35,510 --> 00:29:33,279
contributions including the 2003

831
00:29:36,870 --> 00:29:35,520
uh mars exploration rover rock abrasion

832
00:29:39,110 --> 00:29:36,880
tools

833
00:29:41,590 --> 00:29:39,120
the 2011 mars science laboratory

834
00:29:44,310 --> 00:29:41,600
robotics sample manipulation system and

835
00:29:47,669 --> 00:29:44,320
dust removal tool end effector

836
00:29:50,870 --> 00:29:47,679
phoenix mars lander tega dust cover and

837
00:29:53,590 --> 00:29:50,880
icy soil acquisition device

838
00:29:56,389 --> 00:29:53,600
honeybee robotics has

839
00:29:58,070 --> 00:29:56,399
done successfully 300 plus excavation on

840
00:30:03,029 --> 00:29:58,080
mars and

841
00:30:07,350 --> 00:30:04,950
as you can see honeybee robotics has

842
00:30:09,909 --> 00:30:07,360
technology suitable for topics two three

843
00:30:12,230 --> 00:30:09,919
four five and six of nasa's asteroid

844
00:30:13,909 --> 00:30:12,240
initiative but currently i'd like to

845
00:30:16,789 --> 00:30:13,919
talk to topic two

846
00:30:19,750 --> 00:30:16,799
of asteroid redirection systems

847
00:30:22,310 --> 00:30:19,760
and our sensing technologies

848
00:30:24,630 --> 00:30:22,320
for rendezvous prox ops characteristic

849
00:30:25,909 --> 00:30:24,640
characterization and capture

850
00:30:27,430 --> 00:30:25,919
we have some

851
00:30:30,070 --> 00:30:27,440
technologies to think that really help

852
00:30:31,669 --> 00:30:30,080
you see the asteroid

853
00:30:34,789 --> 00:30:31,679
one of them is our laser induced

854
00:30:36,470 --> 00:30:34,799
breakdown spectroscopy that's lids

855
00:30:38,549 --> 00:30:36,480
it's currently implemented

856
00:30:41,029 --> 00:30:38,559
in our terrestrial applications it

857
00:30:42,950 --> 00:30:41,039
allows us to vaporize and ionize surface

858
00:30:44,630 --> 00:30:42,960
material so you create a puff of plasma

859
00:30:46,630 --> 00:30:44,640
at the surface we're then able to

860
00:30:54,230 --> 00:30:46,640
capture the emission spectrum as the

861
00:30:58,230 --> 00:30:56,230
the mission spectra is representative of

862
00:31:01,350 --> 00:30:58,240
the surface material without any

863
00:31:02,630 --> 00:31:01,360
contaminants from physical

864
00:31:04,470 --> 00:31:02,640
interaction

865
00:31:06,549 --> 00:31:04,480
and so we're there by attaining a

866
00:31:11,509 --> 00:31:06,559
surface material composition uh without

867
00:31:15,830 --> 00:31:13,269
as some of the presenters mentioned

868
00:31:18,149 --> 00:31:15,840
before you're coming upon the asteroid

869
00:31:20,789 --> 00:31:18,159
possibly very little information about

870
00:31:21,909 --> 00:31:20,799
its uh composition materials and bulk

871
00:31:23,909 --> 00:31:21,919
structure

872
00:31:25,509 --> 00:31:23,919
and we think this is a

873
00:31:27,909 --> 00:31:25,519
excellent way of

874
00:31:31,350 --> 00:31:27,919
helping reduce that uncertainty before

875
00:31:33,110 --> 00:31:31,360
physical interaction with the asteroid

876
00:31:36,310 --> 00:31:33,120
this is pretty simple

877
00:31:38,710 --> 00:31:36,320
similar to the msl chemcam

878
00:31:40,710 --> 00:31:38,720
and this is a pertinent president for

879
00:31:42,389 --> 00:31:40,720
performing this type of observation

880
00:31:44,549 --> 00:31:42,399
however we prefer

881
00:31:46,149 --> 00:31:44,559
proposing to do it at a standoff

882
00:31:47,830 --> 00:31:46,159
distance so that you don't have to be

883
00:31:49,350 --> 00:31:47,840
quite

884
00:31:52,549 --> 00:31:49,360
as close to the

885
00:31:56,070 --> 00:31:52,559
material of surface material

886
00:31:58,149 --> 00:31:56,080
the other technology is a 3d lidar

887
00:31:59,430 --> 00:31:58,159
it's an improvement to machine vision

888
00:32:01,269 --> 00:31:59,440
that assists with

889
00:32:04,630 --> 00:32:01,279
detail-oriented operations while

890
00:32:06,310 --> 00:32:04,640
maintaining global awareness

891
00:32:08,710 --> 00:32:06,320
it's operating much in the way that the

892
00:32:11,190 --> 00:32:08,720
human eye does so there's a central area

893
00:32:13,590 --> 00:32:11,200
of high resolution for detail work

894
00:32:16,230 --> 00:32:13,600
combined with the low area larger area

895
00:32:17,750 --> 00:32:16,240
of low resolution for context and motion

896
00:32:19,269 --> 00:32:17,760
tracking

897
00:32:20,230 --> 00:32:19,279
this is achieved

898
00:32:23,190 --> 00:32:20,240
by

899
00:32:28,070 --> 00:32:25,830
produce a higher res

900
00:32:31,669 --> 00:32:28,080
laser pattern on an area of interest

901
00:32:33,750 --> 00:32:31,679
while doing a sparse laser pattern on

902
00:32:36,070 --> 00:32:33,760
the global area not

903
00:32:37,509 --> 00:32:36,080
thereby able to detect dynamic changes

904
00:32:39,750 --> 00:32:37,519
in the field of view

905
00:32:42,870 --> 00:32:39,760
and focus that laser scan pattern on an

906
00:32:45,430 --> 00:32:42,880
area of interest while maintaining a

907
00:32:47,269 --> 00:32:45,440
global awareness

908
00:32:49,029 --> 00:32:47,279
it allows us to map and track the

909
00:32:50,870 --> 00:32:49,039
surface of the asteroid and this is

910
00:32:53,909 --> 00:32:50,880
again significantly important for

911
00:32:55,029 --> 00:32:53,919
conducting proximity operations

912
00:32:57,350 --> 00:32:55,039
around

913
00:32:59,509 --> 00:32:57,360
uncharacterized object

914
00:33:01,110 --> 00:32:59,519
something that might might have sizable

915
00:33:03,190 --> 00:33:01,120
relief

916
00:33:05,830 --> 00:33:03,200
especially where you're looking to land

917
00:33:07,269 --> 00:33:05,840
a spacecraft and do anchoring operations

918
00:33:08,830 --> 00:33:07,279
that could be looking for a very

919
00:33:10,710 --> 00:33:08,840
specific

920
00:33:11,509 --> 00:33:10,720
placement

921
00:33:13,509 --> 00:33:11,519
so

922
00:33:16,070 --> 00:33:13,519
both of these technologies allow

923
00:33:18,870 --> 00:33:16,080
spacecraft to characterize its otherwise

924
00:33:21,029 --> 00:33:18,880
unknown target and operate inside of a

925
00:33:23,029 --> 00:33:21,039
feedback loop

926
00:33:25,190 --> 00:33:23,039
and control algorithms

927
00:33:27,590 --> 00:33:25,200
for proximity apps

928
00:33:29,830 --> 00:33:27,600
now in addition to these

929
00:33:30,950 --> 00:33:29,840
technologies if to further characterize

930
00:33:35,190 --> 00:33:30,960
the

931
00:33:37,430 --> 00:33:35,200
asteroid before interaction we have

932
00:33:41,029 --> 00:33:37,440
some past work with impactors which

933
00:33:43,190 --> 00:33:41,039
would in addition to giving you

934
00:33:45,909 --> 00:33:43,200
composition it could give you property

935
00:33:48,389 --> 00:33:45,919
information uh by characterizing the

936
00:33:50,710 --> 00:33:48,399
ejective plume from impact

937
00:33:52,470 --> 00:33:50,720
this is our across

938
00:33:53,909 --> 00:33:52,480
technology

939
00:33:56,789 --> 00:33:53,919
in addition

940
00:33:57,830 --> 00:33:56,799
we can touch it um with a touch and go

941
00:34:00,549 --> 00:33:57,840
sampler

942
00:34:03,190 --> 00:34:00,559
that allows you to use a tethered sample

943
00:34:04,870 --> 00:34:03,200
collection to assay the surface before

944
00:34:08,790 --> 00:34:04,880
committing to it

945
00:34:13,109 --> 00:34:10,310
basically a

946
00:34:15,829 --> 00:34:13,119
propelled drill

947
00:34:18,149 --> 00:34:15,839
furthermore we can harpoon sample it and

948
00:34:19,270 --> 00:34:18,159
these will be talked about in other

949
00:34:20,790 --> 00:34:19,280
discussions

950
00:34:22,950 --> 00:34:20,800
which

951
00:34:24,790 --> 00:34:22,960
can again give you that a priori

952
00:34:27,510 --> 00:34:24,800
knowledge before uh

953
00:34:31,990 --> 00:34:29,750
we can drill with honeybees extensive

954
00:34:33,829 --> 00:34:32,000
history and robotic joint and sample

955
00:34:35,270 --> 00:34:33,839
collection

956
00:34:38,470 --> 00:34:35,280
can

957
00:34:41,510 --> 00:34:38,480
get below just the surface properties

958
00:34:43,829 --> 00:34:41,520
of the asteroid

959
00:34:45,669 --> 00:34:43,839
to understand how it's going to act

960
00:34:47,669 --> 00:34:45,679
when you attempt to apply

961
00:34:49,829 --> 00:34:47,679
redirect forces to it and

962
00:34:51,430 --> 00:34:49,839
touch down on it

963
00:34:53,190 --> 00:34:51,440
once you're down there we can

964
00:34:55,909 --> 00:34:53,200
inhale it as we say

965
00:34:59,190 --> 00:34:55,919
with a pneumatic sampler and excavation

966
00:35:02,950 --> 00:34:59,200
system that allows us to collect

967
00:35:04,710 --> 00:35:02,960
either cutting tailings or loose surface

968
00:35:05,670 --> 00:35:04,720
materials

969
00:35:07,910 --> 00:35:05,680
and

970
00:35:11,750 --> 00:35:07,920
we can snare small objects

971
00:35:15,750 --> 00:35:13,910
and then we can also anchor to it with a

972
00:35:17,510 --> 00:35:15,760
self-opposed multi-mode anchoring

973
00:35:18,630 --> 00:35:17,520
technologies that we have

974
00:35:20,710 --> 00:35:18,640
developed

975
00:35:22,310 --> 00:35:20,720
through past work

976
00:35:25,430 --> 00:35:22,320
that allow you to

977
00:35:26,950 --> 00:35:25,440
touch down and produce a firm base

978
00:35:29,349 --> 00:35:26,960
station with it

979
00:35:31,190 --> 00:35:29,359
lastly we have done work with

980
00:35:32,550 --> 00:35:31,200
full asteroid capture if it's small

981
00:35:34,390 --> 00:35:32,560
enough

982
00:35:36,710 --> 00:35:34,400
and these are just some of the

983
00:35:37,430 --> 00:35:36,720
capabilities that we have

984
00:35:39,030 --> 00:35:37,440
and

985
00:35:42,310 --> 00:35:39,040
others will be talked about more in the

986
00:35:43,589 --> 00:35:42,320
different topics we think that

987
00:35:45,670 --> 00:35:43,599
the

988
00:35:48,150 --> 00:35:45,680
past work that honeybees done has

989
00:35:49,670 --> 00:35:48,160
prepared us to support a asteroid

990
00:35:52,310 --> 00:35:49,680
redirect mission

991
00:35:53,270 --> 00:35:52,320
and uh if you guys have any questions uh

992
00:35:55,030 --> 00:35:53,280
i guess

993
00:35:57,030 --> 00:35:55,040
i'll stick it out afterwards or open

994
00:35:59,190 --> 00:35:57,040
them now if there's time

995
00:36:01,589 --> 00:35:59,200
okay great jonathan um i think we have

996
00:36:02,710 --> 00:36:01,599
time for one or two questions preferably

997
00:36:04,150 --> 00:36:02,720
first of all

998
00:36:12,069 --> 00:36:04,160
focused on something directly for

999
00:36:15,349 --> 00:36:13,109
okay

1000
00:36:17,670 --> 00:36:15,359
jonathan and if if not i encourage you

1001
00:36:19,990 --> 00:36:17,680
guys to contact us at info honeybee

1002
00:36:21,910 --> 00:36:20,000
robotics.com with any uh

1003
00:36:24,069 --> 00:36:21,920
follow-up information requests okay

1004
00:36:27,430 --> 00:36:24,079
thank you

1005
00:36:30,150 --> 00:36:29,190
and and if you can we would appreciate

1006
00:36:35,109 --> 00:36:30,160
if you can stick around for our

1007
00:36:39,589 --> 00:36:37,670
okay our next speaker stephen warwick

1008
00:36:41,030 --> 00:36:39,599
from northrop grumman he's a system

1009
00:36:42,390 --> 00:36:41,040
engineer in the system engineering

1010
00:36:43,829 --> 00:36:42,400
directorate

1011
00:36:45,829 --> 00:36:43,839
he earned his bachelor's degree in

1012
00:36:48,069 --> 00:36:45,839
physics from leicester university in the

1013
00:36:50,550 --> 00:36:48,079
united kingdom and his master's at

1014
00:36:52,310 --> 00:36:50,560
cranfield university steve will talk

1015
00:36:54,150 --> 00:36:52,320
about an integrated sensor system to

1016
00:36:56,790 --> 00:36:54,160
support asteroid characterization

1017
00:36:58,630 --> 00:36:56,800
proximity operations and capture

1018
00:37:00,230 --> 00:36:58,640
thank you very much and it's a pleasure

1019
00:37:02,069 --> 00:37:00,240
to be here this afternoon i'm here on

1020
00:37:03,829 --> 00:37:02,079
behalf of northrop grumman and i'm going

1021
00:37:05,829 --> 00:37:03,839
to be talking about the integrated

1022
00:37:07,910 --> 00:37:05,839
sensor system what we hope to do with

1023
00:37:09,910 --> 00:37:07,920
this was look at a layered approach that

1024
00:37:12,550 --> 00:37:09,920
will give us information as we approach

1025
00:37:13,589 --> 00:37:12,560
the asteroid and one of these buttons

1026
00:37:15,109 --> 00:37:13,599
works

1027
00:37:19,430 --> 00:37:15,119
top one

1028
00:37:21,510 --> 00:37:19,440
there we go

1029
00:37:23,109 --> 00:37:21,520
all right this is part of three talks

1030
00:37:25,829 --> 00:37:23,119
that northrop grumman will be giving

1031
00:37:27,910 --> 00:37:25,839
over the next two days provided people

1032
00:37:30,150 --> 00:37:27,920
in washington have any sense

1033
00:37:31,670 --> 00:37:30,160
um today i'm talking about integrated

1034
00:37:34,390 --> 00:37:31,680
sensing systems tomorrow we're looking

1035
00:37:36,550 --> 00:37:34,400
at the asteroid deflection system that's

1036
00:37:38,790 --> 00:37:36,560
given by jim munger that's pushing the

1037
00:37:40,069 --> 00:37:38,800
larger objects and then also tomorrow

1038
00:37:43,030 --> 00:37:40,079
afternoon we're looking at asteroid

1039
00:37:44,950 --> 00:37:43,040
capture with uh howard ella

1040
00:37:47,190 --> 00:37:44,960
so what we were hoping to do when we

1041
00:37:49,270 --> 00:37:47,200
took a look at this is produce a layered

1042
00:37:52,390 --> 00:37:49,280
sensing approach that is going to buy

1043
00:37:54,390 --> 00:37:52,400
down risk as we fly towards the asteroid

1044
00:37:56,310 --> 00:37:54,400
this is going to be something unusual in

1045
00:37:58,390 --> 00:37:56,320
nasa land because we are not going to

1046
00:38:00,390 --> 00:37:58,400
know what we're really going to do until

1047
00:38:01,589 --> 00:38:00,400
we get close to the object

1048
00:38:03,670 --> 00:38:01,599
we're going to be launching with a

1049
00:38:04,870 --> 00:38:03,680
significant amount of risk in the

1050
00:38:07,109 --> 00:38:04,880
program

1051
00:38:08,870 --> 00:38:07,119
and when we were looking at what sensors

1052
00:38:11,430 --> 00:38:08,880
were useful to us and what would help us

1053
00:38:12,470 --> 00:38:11,440
buy down the risk we had a straw man

1054
00:38:15,270 --> 00:38:12,480
mission

1055
00:38:17,109 --> 00:38:15,280
and we gave a orbit condition code of

1056
00:38:19,270 --> 00:38:17,119
one if you know these things that's

1057
00:38:22,230 --> 00:38:19,280
actually knowing the orbit very well

1058
00:38:24,150 --> 00:38:22,240
uh h mag of 28.5 that's the brightness

1059
00:38:25,990 --> 00:38:24,160
of the object from the ground but what

1060
00:38:28,790 --> 00:38:26,000
we don't know about the object at all is

1061
00:38:30,550 --> 00:38:28,800
the real diameter the mass the spin rate

1062
00:38:32,470 --> 00:38:30,560
whether there's a binary with the object

1063
00:38:35,589 --> 00:38:32,480
or any kind of debris field and what

1064
00:38:37,589 --> 00:38:35,599
this series of sensors is going to do is

1065
00:38:39,430 --> 00:38:37,599
find that information out

1066
00:38:40,870 --> 00:38:39,440
and reduce the risk to the capture

1067
00:38:43,349 --> 00:38:40,880
vehicle

1068
00:38:45,829 --> 00:38:43,359
all right so starting 10 000 kilometers

1069
00:38:47,589 --> 00:38:45,839
or more away from the the asteroid and

1070
00:38:48,950 --> 00:38:47,599
we suggested uh visible and

1071
00:38:51,910 --> 00:38:48,960
near-infrared

1072
00:38:53,589 --> 00:38:51,920
banned telescopes maybe six inch optics

1073
00:38:55,510 --> 00:38:53,599
and they have quite a large field of

1074
00:38:58,069 --> 00:38:55,520
view and would be scanning those to look

1075
00:38:59,589 --> 00:38:58,079
for the asteroid one of the things about

1076
00:39:01,190 --> 00:38:59,599
approaching one of these asteroids is

1077
00:39:04,069 --> 00:39:01,200
even when the orbit condition is

1078
00:39:05,990 --> 00:39:04,079
relatively good we're still not 100 sure

1079
00:39:07,430 --> 00:39:06,000
where they are the the mission is going

1080
00:39:08,870 --> 00:39:07,440
to have to find the asteroid as it

1081
00:39:11,190 --> 00:39:08,880
approaches

1082
00:39:13,510 --> 00:39:11,200
and the goal here is to improve the

1083
00:39:15,430 --> 00:39:13,520
orbit accuracy know our distance to the

1084
00:39:17,910 --> 00:39:15,440
object as well i mean there's some other

1085
00:39:20,710 --> 00:39:17,920
information we may be able to find out

1086
00:39:22,470 --> 00:39:20,720
we may be able to get a spin state from

1087
00:39:24,630 --> 00:39:22,480
a light curve as well using this

1088
00:39:26,790 --> 00:39:24,640
instrument but primarily this is about

1089
00:39:28,550 --> 00:39:26,800
finding the asteroid and there on the

1090
00:39:30,790 --> 00:39:28,560
slide on the right and you can see the

1091
00:39:32,870 --> 00:39:30,800
advantage of infrared over visible it

1092
00:39:35,349 --> 00:39:32,880
gives you a better idea of the size of

1093
00:39:37,910 --> 00:39:35,359
the object you're going to be looking at

1094
00:39:39,430 --> 00:39:37,920
okay we get closer to the object and

1095
00:39:41,349 --> 00:39:39,440
from 100 kilometers or so we're

1096
00:39:42,630 --> 00:39:41,359
suggesting a radar ground penetrating

1097
00:39:43,829 --> 00:39:42,640
radar

1098
00:39:45,430 --> 00:39:43,839
obviously that gives you

1099
00:39:48,470 --> 00:39:45,440
characterization of the shape of the

1100
00:39:50,550 --> 00:39:48,480
object uh it improves your ranging to

1101
00:39:52,870 --> 00:39:50,560
the object now you know even to higher

1102
00:39:54,230 --> 00:39:52,880
accuracy how where the object is

1103
00:39:55,910 --> 00:39:54,240
and you're going to get some information

1104
00:39:57,670 --> 00:39:55,920
about the spin state or the tumbling

1105
00:39:59,430 --> 00:39:57,680
nature of the asteroid and of course

1106
00:40:00,710 --> 00:39:59,440
because it's ground penetrating radar

1107
00:40:02,630 --> 00:40:00,720
that's going to give you your first

1108
00:40:04,790 --> 00:40:02,640
indication of whether you're dealing

1109
00:40:06,550 --> 00:40:04,800
with a monolithic rock or you're dealing

1110
00:40:08,550 --> 00:40:06,560
with one of these rubble piles and

1111
00:40:11,190 --> 00:40:08,560
that's obviously going to be critical

1112
00:40:15,109 --> 00:40:11,200
for the for the safety of the capture

1113
00:40:18,069 --> 00:40:15,119
spacecraft as it approaches the object

1114
00:40:20,069 --> 00:40:18,079
getting closer still 50 kilometers or so

1115
00:40:23,349 --> 00:40:20,079
uh lidar radar

1116
00:40:26,550 --> 00:40:23,359
and be able to generate a 3d model of

1117
00:40:27,910 --> 00:40:26,560
the asteroid as it spans and obviously

1118
00:40:29,190 --> 00:40:27,920
we don't expect these objects to be

1119
00:40:30,790 --> 00:40:29,200
circular they're going to be quite

1120
00:40:33,430 --> 00:40:30,800
irregular this will give us our

1121
00:40:34,790 --> 00:40:33,440
indication of of what nature of

1122
00:40:37,670 --> 00:40:34,800
irregular object we're going to be

1123
00:40:42,230 --> 00:40:40,309
and getting closer still and we quite

1124
00:40:45,430 --> 00:40:42,240
like this one this is a

1125
00:40:48,069 --> 00:40:45,440
cubesat we uh and back in 2010 northrop

1126
00:40:50,150 --> 00:40:48,079
launched a cubesat called mayflower the

1127
00:40:51,990 --> 00:40:50,160
next generation of that plymouth is a

1128
00:40:53,190 --> 00:40:52,000
three axis stabilized three by one

1129
00:40:56,069 --> 00:40:53,200
cubesat

1130
00:40:57,190 --> 00:40:56,079
and it also has some delta v on board 20

1131
00:40:58,790 --> 00:40:57,200
25

1132
00:41:01,670 --> 00:40:58,800
and meters a second

1133
00:41:04,069 --> 00:41:01,680
and it has capacity for a reasonable

1134
00:41:06,069 --> 00:41:04,079
amount of solar array on there as well

1135
00:41:07,190 --> 00:41:06,079
and it has its own instrument suite

1136
00:41:09,750 --> 00:41:07,200
called dark

1137
00:41:10,630 --> 00:41:09,760
that has a camera radar and lidar of its

1138
00:41:12,309 --> 00:41:10,640
own

1139
00:41:14,870 --> 00:41:12,319
and what you get from that is the

1140
00:41:16,630 --> 00:41:14,880
ability for the capture spacecraft to be

1141
00:41:17,750 --> 00:41:16,640
set a reasonable distance away from the

1142
00:41:19,990 --> 00:41:17,760
asteroid

1143
00:41:21,670 --> 00:41:20,000
safe from any debris or any other

1144
00:41:23,510 --> 00:41:21,680
problem that the asteroid

1145
00:41:25,589 --> 00:41:23,520
may threaten them to capture vehicle

1146
00:41:28,069 --> 00:41:25,599
with and get very very close with one of

1147
00:41:30,150 --> 00:41:28,079
these objects and with one of these

1148
00:41:32,710 --> 00:41:30,160
cubesats um

1149
00:41:35,349 --> 00:41:32,720
down to 50 meters or so range

1150
00:41:37,589 --> 00:41:35,359
a real advantage of this is we realize

1151
00:41:39,270 --> 00:41:37,599
that as you approach the asteroid and

1152
00:41:41,510 --> 00:41:39,280
station keep with the asteroid using the

1153
00:41:43,910 --> 00:41:41,520
cubesat and you watch it for a couple of

1154
00:41:45,990 --> 00:41:43,920
days then relative to the the primary

1155
00:41:47,190 --> 00:41:46,000
spacecraft you're going to see very slow

1156
00:41:49,589 --> 00:41:47,200
acceleration and that's the

1157
00:41:51,190 --> 00:41:49,599
gravitational field of the asteroid and

1158
00:41:52,710 --> 00:41:51,200
i'll give you your first indications of

1159
00:41:56,309 --> 00:41:52,720
the true mass of the asteroid that

1160
00:42:00,950 --> 00:41:58,230
and getting closer still and this is

1161
00:42:02,790 --> 00:42:00,960
another q-type concept if the if the

1162
00:42:04,790 --> 00:42:02,800
ball there looks familiar that's because

1163
00:42:08,870 --> 00:42:04,800
we developed it with honeybee

1164
00:42:11,990 --> 00:42:08,880
uh for a discovery program in 2010 and

1165
00:42:14,150 --> 00:42:12,000
also an at ames research center we call

1166
00:42:16,470 --> 00:42:14,160
these impactors really we've also used

1167
00:42:18,309 --> 00:42:16,480
the name thumpers they're intended to

1168
00:42:20,950 --> 00:42:18,319
impact very slowly

1169
00:42:23,990 --> 00:42:20,960
meters a second the accelerometers

1170
00:42:26,630 --> 00:42:24,000
inside the ball give you uh

1171
00:42:28,630 --> 00:42:26,640
more information on the composition of

1172
00:42:30,630 --> 00:42:28,640
the asteroid whether you're hitting dust

1173
00:42:32,710 --> 00:42:30,640
grains or solid rock

1174
00:42:34,470 --> 00:42:32,720
and then there's another version the the

1175
00:42:36,710 --> 00:42:34,480
one you cube sound that's got cameras on

1176
00:42:38,470 --> 00:42:36,720
board and an electrostatic probe to give

1177
00:42:39,910 --> 00:42:38,480
you any idea of any kind of electrical

1178
00:42:42,069 --> 00:42:39,920
field that the

1179
00:42:44,790 --> 00:42:42,079
asteroid may have in any kind of dust

1180
00:42:46,710 --> 00:42:44,800
environment around it both the cubesat

1181
00:42:48,470 --> 00:42:46,720
concepts we've shown here they are

1182
00:42:50,710 --> 00:42:48,480
moderately low trl as it stands at the

1183
00:42:53,910 --> 00:42:50,720
moment but we've shown that you can go

1184
00:42:57,349 --> 00:42:53,920
from concept to launch with a cubesat in

1185
00:42:58,630 --> 00:42:57,359
six months or so so we would expect uh

1186
00:43:01,030 --> 00:42:58,640
if we were going to do something like

1187
00:43:02,950 --> 00:43:01,040
this to actually be flying

1188
00:43:04,790 --> 00:43:02,960
uh the cubesats ahead of time in low

1189
00:43:06,230 --> 00:43:04,800
earth orbit

1190
00:43:08,550 --> 00:43:06,240
and

1191
00:43:10,710 --> 00:43:08,560
the uh

1192
00:43:13,589 --> 00:43:10,720
sorry let me uh

1193
00:43:15,750 --> 00:43:13,599
but in both cases they uh are they're

1194
00:43:17,270 --> 00:43:15,760
not exquisite technology they are they

1195
00:43:20,150 --> 00:43:17,280
are commercial off-the-shelf type

1196
00:43:22,309 --> 00:43:20,160
technology and we achieve redundancy by

1197
00:43:25,190 --> 00:43:22,319
having multiple copies of of all the

1198
00:43:26,550 --> 00:43:25,200
cubesats we've shown here

1199
00:43:29,589 --> 00:43:26,560
so in summary hopefully what we're

1200
00:43:31,190 --> 00:43:29,599
showing here is a series a layered

1201
00:43:33,750 --> 00:43:31,200
approach that's going to buy down the

1202
00:43:35,829 --> 00:43:33,760
risk as we actually fly the mission and

1203
00:43:37,829 --> 00:43:35,839
how we get close to the object how we

1204
00:43:39,349 --> 00:43:37,839
find out what the object really is and

1205
00:43:42,390 --> 00:43:39,359
how we can model

1206
00:43:44,710 --> 00:43:42,400
the composition the shape the tumble and

1207
00:43:47,109 --> 00:43:44,720
spin of the object on the ground in such

1208
00:43:49,270 --> 00:43:47,119
a way that safe capture of the asteroid

1209
00:43:51,349 --> 00:43:49,280
can be achieved

1210
00:44:10,550 --> 00:43:51,359
all right

1211
00:44:13,510 --> 00:44:11,910
can you give us a

1212
00:44:15,030 --> 00:44:13,520
an idea of what a ground penetrating

1213
00:44:17,910 --> 00:44:15,040
radar might cost

1214
00:44:23,670 --> 00:44:17,920
uh i i'm afraid i can't no i don't have

1215
00:44:27,270 --> 00:44:25,510
anybody else

1216
00:44:29,030 --> 00:44:27,280
anything uh coming in

1217
00:44:32,950 --> 00:44:29,040
from

1218
00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:36,630
thank you

1219
00:44:40,710 --> 00:44:39,589
um our next presenter

1220
00:44:45,190 --> 00:44:40,720
is

1221
00:44:46,950 --> 00:44:45,200
rich

1222
00:44:48,870 --> 00:44:46,960
works in business development and civil

1223
00:44:51,349 --> 00:44:48,880
space and technologies at ball aerospace

1224
00:44:53,030 --> 00:44:51,359
he's primarily responsible for the

1225
00:44:55,430 --> 00:44:53,040
pursuit and formulation of instruments

1226
00:44:56,950 --> 00:44:55,440
in spacecraft for science missions he

1227
00:44:59,670 --> 00:44:56,960
received a doctorate in planetary

1228
00:45:01,589 --> 00:44:59,680
sciences from caltech in 1994

1229
00:45:03,430 --> 00:45:01,599
his talk will

1230
00:45:04,470 --> 00:45:03,440
evaluate sensing requirements for arm

1231
00:45:11,349 --> 00:45:04,480
and

1232
00:45:12,870 --> 00:45:11,359
along with several other folks in the

1233
00:45:13,910 --> 00:45:12,880
room i think so

1234
00:45:15,910 --> 00:45:13,920
um

1235
00:45:18,630 --> 00:45:15,920
it's getting better now though at least

1236
00:45:20,230 --> 00:45:18,640
at least in a lot of areas um

1237
00:45:22,710 --> 00:45:20,240
so this this is a

1238
00:45:23,829 --> 00:45:22,720
sound kind of familiar to uh

1239
00:45:25,190 --> 00:45:23,839
you know it's kind of along the same

1240
00:45:26,950 --> 00:45:25,200
theme of several other talks so i'm

1241
00:45:29,270 --> 00:45:26,960
gonna i'm gonna focus uh more on a

1242
00:45:31,750 --> 00:45:29,280
couple of things toward the end but we

1243
00:45:33,589 --> 00:45:31,760
looked at the uh the not nominal arm

1244
00:45:35,270 --> 00:45:33,599
scenario to say what are the kind of

1245
00:45:36,870 --> 00:45:35,280
what's the minimum base set of sensors

1246
00:45:38,230 --> 00:45:36,880
that you might need for this

1247
00:45:39,990 --> 00:45:38,240
um

1248
00:45:41,670 --> 00:45:40,000
just to get to the punch line i see a

1249
00:45:43,270 --> 00:45:41,680
minimum set being a narrow and wide

1250
00:45:45,670 --> 00:45:43,280
field of view visible imagers and an

1251
00:45:47,670 --> 00:45:45,680
imaging lidar sounds like a similar

1252
00:45:49,750 --> 00:45:47,680
conclusion although there's some nuances

1253
00:45:51,030 --> 00:45:49,760
there uh what senses are available want

1254
00:45:53,990 --> 00:45:51,040
to talk to that a little bit are there

1255
00:45:55,670 --> 00:45:54,000
some gaps in uh in the sensing

1256
00:45:57,510 --> 00:45:55,680
technology we heard a lot about there

1257
00:45:58,790 --> 00:45:57,520
are a lot of high trl

1258
00:46:00,870 --> 00:45:58,800
things available right now i think

1259
00:46:03,430 --> 00:46:00,880
that's true in the hardware side i'm i'm

1260
00:46:05,349 --> 00:46:03,440
more concerned about uh in this the

1261
00:46:06,950 --> 00:46:05,359
fully autonomous software for prox ops

1262
00:46:08,390 --> 00:46:06,960
there's a lot of work going on there

1263
00:46:10,790 --> 00:46:08,400
fantastic work in a lot of different

1264
00:46:12,790 --> 00:46:10,800
locations but you got to piece all that

1265
00:46:15,510 --> 00:46:12,800
together and make it make it uh

1266
00:46:17,589 --> 00:46:15,520
robust uh and fully autonomous for for

1267
00:46:19,430 --> 00:46:17,599
flight ops here that that that to me is

1268
00:46:20,950 --> 00:46:19,440
the the a big kicker that we need to

1269
00:46:22,630 --> 00:46:20,960
concentrate on

1270
00:46:25,510 --> 00:46:22,640
um this is also as we've heard

1271
00:46:27,670 --> 00:46:25,520
applicable to a number of um other other

1272
00:46:30,790 --> 00:46:27,680
mission concepts recon missions to small

1273
00:46:33,990 --> 00:46:30,800
bodies arnd orbital remediation

1274
00:46:36,230 --> 00:46:34,000
satellite servicing so

1275
00:46:39,589 --> 00:46:36,240
leave it at that so this is my rendition

1276
00:46:41,750 --> 00:46:39,599
of what the mission looks like

1277
00:46:43,829 --> 00:46:41,760
several different uh

1278
00:46:45,750 --> 00:46:43,839
distances here and what kind of sensors

1279
00:46:49,190 --> 00:46:45,760
you you can see here

1280
00:46:51,430 --> 00:46:49,200
being being needed to be applied for for

1281
00:46:54,390 --> 00:46:51,440
navigation and prox ops

1282
00:46:56,309 --> 00:46:54,400
the narrow field of view imagery far out

1283
00:46:58,150 --> 00:46:56,319
as you get getting closer and closer you

1284
00:47:00,630 --> 00:46:58,160
start bringing in lidar in order to get

1285
00:47:02,710 --> 00:47:00,640
to get bearing information then pose

1286
00:47:04,150 --> 00:47:02,720
information further in uh need to get

1287
00:47:06,150 --> 00:47:04,160
surface features and have the surface

1288
00:47:08,390 --> 00:47:06,160
features blended in to the to the pose

1289
00:47:10,470 --> 00:47:08,400
model as well

1290
00:47:12,630 --> 00:47:10,480
but what's missing out of all these that

1291
00:47:14,950 --> 00:47:12,640
i see is that you you don't really have

1292
00:47:16,710 --> 00:47:14,960
any kind of information solid

1293
00:47:19,109 --> 00:47:16,720
information anyway about mechanical

1294
00:47:21,829 --> 00:47:19,119
properties of the target now i've

1295
00:47:23,510 --> 00:47:21,839
heard a lot of good good talk and i want

1296
00:47:25,990 --> 00:47:23,520
to hear more discussion about

1297
00:47:28,549 --> 00:47:26,000
this airbag technique being

1298
00:47:30,390 --> 00:47:28,559
robust to to any any range of mechanical

1299
00:47:32,390 --> 00:47:30,400
properties that would scare me thinking

1300
00:47:35,270 --> 00:47:32,400
about this is going to be a you know

1301
00:47:37,430 --> 00:47:35,280
tens of minute kind of operation to to

1302
00:47:38,950 --> 00:47:37,440
go in and move in maneuver around

1303
00:47:40,950 --> 00:47:38,960
something like that

1304
00:47:42,950 --> 00:47:40,960
and encapsulate it and then have some

1305
00:47:44,630 --> 00:47:42,960
other diaphragm come around it and then

1306
00:47:48,069 --> 00:47:44,640
release the airbags in the meantime

1307
00:47:49,589 --> 00:47:48,079
nothing has touched the surface at all

1308
00:47:50,470 --> 00:47:49,599
i think there might be a range of

1309
00:47:53,030 --> 00:47:50,480
different

1310
00:47:54,309 --> 00:47:53,040
conops we might think about here

1311
00:47:55,430 --> 00:47:54,319
depending on whether we've got good

1312
00:47:57,589 --> 00:47:55,440
information about the mechanical

1313
00:47:58,870 --> 00:47:57,599
properties or not of this object so i

1314
00:48:00,790 --> 00:47:58,880
would think you would want to be

1315
00:48:03,829 --> 00:48:00,800
informed of that ahead of time not just

1316
00:48:07,270 --> 00:48:04,549
so

1317
00:48:09,430 --> 00:48:07,280
getting back though to flat flash lidar

1318
00:48:10,470 --> 00:48:09,440
um there are a number of different uh

1319
00:48:11,750 --> 00:48:10,480
candidate

1320
00:48:13,349 --> 00:48:11,760
technologies out there that are high

1321
00:48:16,150 --> 00:48:13,359
tier all right now we we have one at

1322
00:48:17,750 --> 00:48:16,160
ball as well uh this uh vns the vision

1323
00:48:18,829 --> 00:48:17,760
navigation center

1324
00:48:22,790 --> 00:48:18,839
flew on

1325
00:48:24,309 --> 00:48:22,800
sts-134 here you can see a visible image

1326
00:48:26,470 --> 00:48:24,319
along with the

1327
00:48:28,870 --> 00:48:26,480
there's a visible camera along with that

1328
00:48:30,390 --> 00:48:28,880
the vns flash lighter intensity image is

1329
00:48:32,549 --> 00:48:30,400
here and the range images here as it's

1330
00:48:35,190 --> 00:48:32,559
approaching the this docking ring on on

1331
00:48:37,030 --> 00:48:35,200
the iss and flash lighter as you may

1332
00:48:39,349 --> 00:48:37,040
know you know illuminates an entire

1333
00:48:41,750 --> 00:48:39,359
field of view all at once all the pixels

1334
00:48:43,910 --> 00:48:41,760
come back with with a range in real time

1335
00:48:45,270 --> 00:48:43,920
this uh this particular device operates

1336
00:48:47,190 --> 00:48:45,280
at 30 hertz

1337
00:48:48,549 --> 00:48:47,200
uh you can enhance this with adaptive

1338
00:48:50,230 --> 00:48:48,559
beam steering

1339
00:48:52,470 --> 00:48:50,240
we've done some of that a ball of this

1340
00:48:55,349 --> 00:48:52,480
this unit didn't have that

1341
00:48:57,829 --> 00:48:55,359
but there are ways to enhance the uh

1342
00:48:58,549 --> 00:48:57,839
the operability of this for

1343
00:49:00,630 --> 00:48:58,559
for

1344
00:49:02,950 --> 00:49:00,640
high dynamic range targets

1345
00:49:04,630 --> 00:49:02,960
and we've also looked at ways to enhance

1346
00:49:09,030 --> 00:49:04,640
the radiometric performance you can make

1347
00:49:11,510 --> 00:49:09,910
by

1348
00:49:13,109 --> 00:49:11,520
some pretty simple tweaks to this this

1349
00:49:14,710 --> 00:49:13,119
was made to look at rector reflectors on

1350
00:49:15,910 --> 00:49:14,720
the iss but

1351
00:49:17,510 --> 00:49:15,920
you can see you're seeing a lot of the

1352
00:49:19,109 --> 00:49:17,520
skin of the

1353
00:49:20,230 --> 00:49:19,119
iss where the erect reflectors aren't

1354
00:49:21,910 --> 00:49:20,240
there's a retro right there that very

1355
00:49:24,069 --> 00:49:21,920
bright object

1356
00:49:25,430 --> 00:49:24,079
but you can you can tweak this by

1357
00:49:26,870 --> 00:49:25,440
removing the

1358
00:49:28,950 --> 00:49:26,880
optical parametric oscillator for

1359
00:49:30,309 --> 00:49:28,960
instance get about five times the

1360
00:49:31,990 --> 00:49:30,319
performance on that there are a number

1361
00:49:33,670 --> 00:49:32,000
of different things you can do to if

1362
00:49:36,630 --> 00:49:33,680
you're willing to compromise eye safety

1363
00:49:39,750 --> 00:49:36,640
you can make this uh you know be able to

1364
00:49:42,150 --> 00:49:39,760
see a lot on the dark target

1365
00:49:44,630 --> 00:49:42,160
um as i mentioned the technology gap i

1366
00:49:46,790 --> 00:49:44,640
see is this the really the need for

1367
00:49:49,510 --> 00:49:46,800
robust real-time fully autonomous

1368
00:49:51,109 --> 00:49:49,520
proximity ops uh you know this this has

1369
00:49:52,390 --> 00:49:51,119
been uh looked at from a number of

1370
00:49:54,950 --> 00:49:52,400
different angles that you know we've

1371
00:49:56,390 --> 00:49:54,960
heard about the sosc uh as i understand

1372
00:49:58,230 --> 00:49:56,400
there's gonna be a morpheus landing test

1373
00:50:00,470 --> 00:49:58,240
that looks at terrain relative nav and

1374
00:50:02,470 --> 00:50:00,480
hazard avoidance in the loop as part of

1375
00:50:04,630 --> 00:50:02,480
that those are all great things they

1376
00:50:07,510 --> 00:50:04,640
move us the right direction

1377
00:50:09,670 --> 00:50:07,520
one example of data here is to fuse

1378
00:50:11,910 --> 00:50:09,680
visible data from the camera

1379
00:50:12,630 --> 00:50:11,920
with the lighter image and be able to to

1380
00:50:15,270 --> 00:50:12,640
get

1381
00:50:17,430 --> 00:50:15,280
uh information real time and you know

1382
00:50:19,990 --> 00:50:17,440
that's that's uh doesn't matter what the

1383
00:50:22,630 --> 00:50:20,000
elimination conditions are

1384
00:50:24,150 --> 00:50:22,640
so that that needs to be

1385
00:50:25,430 --> 00:50:24,160
you need to know exactly what features

1386
00:50:27,510 --> 00:50:25,440
you're seeing on the on the target as

1387
00:50:29,670 --> 00:50:27,520
well so you get the full pose estimation

1388
00:50:31,510 --> 00:50:29,680
in in real time so you you know where

1389
00:50:33,030 --> 00:50:31,520
you are relative to all those features

1390
00:50:36,150 --> 00:50:33,040
on the asteroid as you're doing these

1391
00:50:37,430 --> 00:50:36,160
these proximity operations

1392
00:50:38,950 --> 00:50:37,440
as is

1393
00:50:40,950 --> 00:50:38,960
as i mentioned i don't i don't see this

1394
00:50:41,829 --> 00:50:40,960
as it's being done in pieces right now

1395
00:50:43,349 --> 00:50:41,839
um

1396
00:50:46,150 --> 00:50:43,359
there needs to be a

1397
00:50:47,990 --> 00:50:46,160
uh you know a full end-to-end uh

1398
00:50:49,910 --> 00:50:48,000
simulation that brings all this together

1399
00:50:51,510 --> 00:50:49,920
i think to really make this robust that

1400
00:50:55,270 --> 00:50:51,520
i think that's gonna be a major

1401
00:50:56,069 --> 00:50:55,280
uh hurdle in this in this mission

1402
00:50:57,829 --> 00:50:56,079
um

1403
00:50:59,589 --> 00:50:57,839
as you saw in john brophy's talk as well

1404
00:51:02,150 --> 00:50:59,599
there was a this picture was up in the

1405
00:51:05,030 --> 00:51:02,160
upper right hand corner of a possible

1406
00:51:06,390 --> 00:51:05,040
augmentation to uh to to

1407
00:51:08,549 --> 00:51:06,400
some of the

1408
00:51:10,790 --> 00:51:08,559
sensors that might be on this this was

1409
00:51:12,870 --> 00:51:10,800
uh you know not really a cubesat a

1410
00:51:14,309 --> 00:51:12,880
sphere set uh i guess

1411
00:51:16,390 --> 00:51:14,319
you saw it's on the last one there was a

1412
00:51:18,309 --> 00:51:16,400
sphere as well this is actually pretty

1413
00:51:20,630 --> 00:51:18,319
high trl now we've we've developed this

1414
00:51:22,069 --> 00:51:20,640
we've done testing over the past uh four

1415
00:51:25,510 --> 00:51:22,079
or five years of ball and we have this

1416
00:51:26,470 --> 00:51:25,520
up around tro5 right now as a as a

1417
00:51:28,630 --> 00:51:26,480
as a

1418
00:51:29,589 --> 00:51:28,640
potential payload for small body body

1419
00:51:31,750 --> 00:51:29,599
missions

1420
00:51:33,670 --> 00:51:31,760
and uh this is you know just one

1421
00:51:34,630 --> 00:51:33,680
scenario that that might play out down

1422
00:51:36,710 --> 00:51:34,640
the bottom here where you have a

1423
00:51:39,349 --> 00:51:36,720
spacecraft in close proximity to a small

1424
00:51:40,790 --> 00:51:39,359
body asteroid in this case

1425
00:51:42,470 --> 00:51:40,800
deploying it off the back end letting it

1426
00:51:43,990 --> 00:51:42,480
free fall down you don't have to make

1427
00:51:46,309 --> 00:51:44,000
this very shock tolerant you know in a

1428
00:51:47,990 --> 00:51:46,319
low g situation it's like dropping your

1429
00:51:49,910 --> 00:51:48,000
pencil from you know about a meter off

1430
00:51:52,630 --> 00:51:49,920
the ground here it'll bounce around the

1431
00:51:54,549 --> 00:51:52,640
surface eventually settle down

1432
00:51:56,230 --> 00:51:54,559
in this particular scenario we were

1433
00:51:58,230 --> 00:51:56,240
using this to try to measure the the

1434
00:51:59,910 --> 00:51:58,240
inherent strength of the object not just

1435
00:52:01,990 --> 00:51:59,920
from the coefficient of restitution from

1436
00:52:04,390 --> 00:52:02,000
from hitting the surface it does have

1437
00:52:06,630 --> 00:52:04,400
accelerometers as a package on this but

1438
00:52:08,630 --> 00:52:06,640
but also by having a small explosive

1439
00:52:11,030 --> 00:52:08,640
charge on it

1440
00:52:13,510 --> 00:52:11,040
to to make a cratering experiment the

1441
00:52:14,710 --> 00:52:13,520
size of the crater is is a direct

1442
00:52:16,390 --> 00:52:14,720
function of what the strength of the

1443
00:52:19,750 --> 00:52:16,400
material is you know the deep impact

1444
00:52:22,390 --> 00:52:19,760
experiment showed that as well uh that

1445
00:52:23,910 --> 00:52:22,400
was one of the premises of it anyway um

1446
00:52:26,150 --> 00:52:23,920
so you know what the size of the crater

1447
00:52:27,750 --> 00:52:26,160
here will inform you a lot about the the

1448
00:52:29,510 --> 00:52:27,760
strength of the material

1449
00:52:30,470 --> 00:52:29,520
is it competent rock or is it a rubble

1450
00:52:31,270 --> 00:52:30,480
pile

1451
00:52:32,470 --> 00:52:31,280
um

1452
00:52:34,470 --> 00:52:32,480
you know this

1453
00:52:35,750 --> 00:52:34,480
but note that there are limitations to

1454
00:52:38,150 --> 00:52:35,760
this you're not going to drop this and

1455
00:52:41,349 --> 00:52:38,160
have one of these spheres be captured in

1456
00:52:44,549 --> 00:52:41,359
a system unless the object is of

1457
00:52:45,910 --> 00:52:44,559
uh you know 100 meters or so or larger

1458
00:52:48,470 --> 00:52:45,920
it's just not going to be a large enough

1459
00:52:50,069 --> 00:52:48,480
gravitational well for it to be captured

1460
00:52:52,309 --> 00:52:50,079
so this is more of a scenario for maybe

1461
00:52:54,069 --> 00:52:52,319
the go grab a rock scenario rather than

1462
00:52:55,109 --> 00:52:54,079
going grabbing the entire entire

1463
00:52:57,510 --> 00:52:55,119
asteroid

1464
00:52:59,670 --> 00:52:57,520
also you know for concepts of it'd be

1465
00:53:01,750 --> 00:52:59,680
nice to have a small free flyer

1466
00:53:03,910 --> 00:53:01,760
something includes maybe a contact probe

1467
00:53:05,829 --> 00:53:03,920
like a little hummingbird to have a

1468
00:53:08,390 --> 00:53:05,839
probiscus to go into touch and go

1469
00:53:10,630 --> 00:53:08,400
surface measurements on the surface

1470
00:53:13,190 --> 00:53:10,640
it also provide a very unique vantage

1471
00:53:14,470 --> 00:53:13,200
point for for imaging the capture

1472
00:53:16,309 --> 00:53:14,480
sequence i think

1473
00:53:18,390 --> 00:53:16,319
you know for for public outreach of this

1474
00:53:20,309 --> 00:53:18,400
would be really nice to have a

1475
00:53:22,950 --> 00:53:20,319
secondary spacecraft watching the entire

1476
00:53:24,470 --> 00:53:22,960
process happen

1477
00:53:26,390 --> 00:53:24,480
so in conclusion

1478
00:53:28,870 --> 00:53:26,400
the arm sensing requirements we see

1479
00:53:31,430 --> 00:53:28,880
being needed for for capture

1480
00:53:33,349 --> 00:53:31,440
one range two pose estimation for a

1481
00:53:35,030 --> 00:53:33,359
resolved target and three high

1482
00:53:36,630 --> 00:53:35,040
resolution visible imaging that's

1483
00:53:37,829 --> 00:53:36,640
actually correlated to that pose

1484
00:53:39,750 --> 00:53:37,839
estimation

1485
00:53:42,390 --> 00:53:39,760
uh those measurements need to be made

1486
00:53:43,670 --> 00:53:42,400
autonomously in real time there are

1487
00:53:45,510 --> 00:53:43,680
mature sensors for making these

1488
00:53:48,549 --> 00:53:45,520
measurements but the software

1489
00:53:50,230 --> 00:53:48,559
is where the development needs to be

1490
00:53:52,470 --> 00:53:50,240
separate flight elements to contact or

1491
00:53:54,069 --> 00:53:52,480
perturb the target surface i think can

1492
00:53:55,270 --> 00:53:54,079
reduce mission risk

1493
00:54:01,589 --> 00:53:55,280
thanks

1494
00:54:05,829 --> 00:54:04,230
we have time for a question for rich if

1495
00:54:08,069 --> 00:54:05,839
in the room

1496
00:54:08,950 --> 00:54:08,079
or virtually

1497
00:54:10,950 --> 00:54:08,960
go ahead

1498
00:54:12,390 --> 00:54:10,960
go to a mic though please

1499
00:54:14,630 --> 00:54:12,400
i can say it really loud how much do

1500
00:54:16,470 --> 00:54:14,640
those surface probes the mass estimates

1501
00:54:18,870 --> 00:54:16,480
for those

1502
00:54:20,230 --> 00:54:18,880
questions yeah the the how much what was

1503
00:54:23,270 --> 00:54:20,240
the mass system up for the surface

1504
00:54:25,270 --> 00:54:23,280
probes um it can vary quite a bit but

1505
00:54:27,109 --> 00:54:25,280
the kind of minimum mass that we see as

1506
00:54:30,630 --> 00:54:27,119
being viable is uh you know on the order

1507
00:54:33,510 --> 00:54:30,640
of five six kilos uh the instantiation

1508
00:54:34,950 --> 00:54:33,520
you saw there had a a couple of kilos of

1509
00:54:36,789 --> 00:54:34,960
actual high explosive on them in

1510
00:54:41,109 --> 00:54:36,799
addition to that so they were they were

1511
00:54:41,119 --> 00:54:44,549
any others

1512
00:54:49,510 --> 00:54:47,349
okay thank you that was a suggestion

1513
00:54:52,309 --> 00:54:49,520
what was the suggestion

1514
00:54:55,190 --> 00:54:52,319
the suggestion was to put an array of

1515
00:54:56,870 --> 00:54:55,200
different sensors and devices

1516
00:55:00,789 --> 00:54:56,880
up and relay the coordinates and

1517
00:55:04,390 --> 00:55:03,030
an array of sensors well actually what

1518
00:55:06,150 --> 00:55:04,400
we were thinking about was an array of

1519
00:55:07,670 --> 00:55:06,160
sensors some of them have geophones on

1520
00:55:09,750 --> 00:55:07,680
them some of them have explosive charges

1521
00:55:12,150 --> 00:55:09,760
you can make a crude seismic network

1522
00:55:14,549 --> 00:55:12,160
that way uh it's hard to place these

1523
00:55:16,390 --> 00:55:14,559
with uh with any control

1524
00:55:18,470 --> 00:55:16,400
so you have to be willing to uh

1525
00:55:20,549 --> 00:55:18,480
to have that uncertainty in the in that

1526
00:55:22,950 --> 00:55:20,559
sensor net but that that is a good

1527
00:55:29,270 --> 00:55:25,910
okay thanks rich

1528
00:55:31,990 --> 00:55:29,280
our next speaker is mark haynes from the

1529
00:55:34,309 --> 00:55:32,000
jet propulsion laboratory

1530
00:55:37,190 --> 00:55:34,319
mark received his phd in applied physics

1531
00:55:39,510 --> 00:55:37,200
from the university of michigan in 2012.

1532
00:55:41,430 --> 00:55:39,520
he joined jpl in june of this year and

1533
00:55:43,030 --> 00:55:41,440
his background is radar

1534
00:55:45,670 --> 00:55:43,040
microwave scattering and inverse

1535
00:55:47,109 --> 00:55:45,680
scattering and medical imaging

1536
00:55:49,030 --> 00:55:47,119
in this presentation he'll give an

1537
00:55:51,109 --> 00:55:49,040
overview of possible applications of

1538
00:55:53,190 --> 00:55:51,119
radar as an asteroid characterization

1539
00:55:55,670 --> 00:55:53,200
and avionics tool

1540
00:55:57,109 --> 00:55:55,680
all right uh good afternoon uh thank you

1541
00:55:58,390 --> 00:55:57,119
for having me

1542
00:56:00,390 --> 00:55:58,400
uh

1543
00:56:02,230 --> 00:56:00,400
like you said um i'm gonna be talking

1544
00:56:04,150 --> 00:56:02,240
about a couple ways in which radar could

1545
00:56:05,430 --> 00:56:04,160
aid future asteroid missions it's a

1546
00:56:06,630 --> 00:56:05,440
pretty general talk there's a lot of

1547
00:56:08,230 --> 00:56:06,640
overlap with some of the other things

1548
00:56:11,270 --> 00:56:08,240
but hopefully we'll generate some more

1549
00:56:12,630 --> 00:56:11,280
detailed discussion later

1550
00:56:14,950 --> 00:56:12,640
so the applications i'm going to talk

1551
00:56:17,030 --> 00:56:14,960
about are aimed at addressing the

1552
00:56:18,870 --> 00:56:17,040
following points of the rfi mostly

1553
00:56:21,430 --> 00:56:18,880
characterization and

1554
00:56:23,589 --> 00:56:21,440
some avionics in general when these

1555
00:56:25,910 --> 00:56:23,599
systems are envisioned as integrated

1556
00:56:27,589 --> 00:56:25,920
sensing systems to be used as an

1557
00:56:29,670 --> 00:56:27,599
avionics tool with the possibility of

1558
00:56:31,349 --> 00:56:29,680
secondary science so real quick just

1559
00:56:33,270 --> 00:56:31,359
some features of radar

1560
00:56:35,030 --> 00:56:33,280
uh it's self-illuminating it works in

1561
00:56:37,990 --> 00:56:35,040
the shadow it can see through dust it's

1562
00:56:39,510 --> 00:56:38,000
very fast it works at a near far range

1563
00:56:41,670 --> 00:56:39,520
and the echoes contain sort of three

1564
00:56:43,430 --> 00:56:41,680
pieces of information how far away you

1565
00:56:45,109 --> 00:56:43,440
are relative motion in the form of

1566
00:56:46,710 --> 00:56:45,119
doppler and then also lots of

1567
00:56:47,349 --> 00:56:46,720
information on the physical scattering

1568
00:56:49,190 --> 00:56:47,359
of

1569
00:56:51,030 --> 00:56:49,200
the body

1570
00:56:52,950 --> 00:56:51,040
so just to give it some context where

1571
00:56:53,990 --> 00:56:52,960
radar has been used in the past

1572
00:56:57,670 --> 00:56:54,000
most everyone's familiar with the

1573
00:56:59,510 --> 00:56:57,680
goldstone arecibo asteroid

1574
00:57:01,589 --> 00:56:59,520
in terms of planetary missions cassini

1575
00:57:03,190 --> 00:57:01,599
magellan had radars that shared the

1576
00:57:05,510 --> 00:57:03,200
communications dish

1577
00:57:07,829 --> 00:57:05,520
there have been three sounding missions

1578
00:57:09,430 --> 00:57:07,839
two to mars mro and mars express and

1579
00:57:11,109 --> 00:57:09,440
then the rosetta concert radar heading

1580
00:57:13,349 --> 00:57:11,119
to the comet

1581
00:57:14,870 --> 00:57:13,359
um

1582
00:57:16,470 --> 00:57:14,880
old mars rovers have gotten where they

1583
00:57:18,630 --> 00:57:16,480
needed to go with the help of landing

1584
00:57:21,109 --> 00:57:18,640
radar and the apollo and shuttle use

1585
00:57:22,870 --> 00:57:21,119
rendezvous radars and to this we can add

1586
00:57:24,150 --> 00:57:22,880
all the earth science remote sensing

1587
00:57:26,870 --> 00:57:24,160
systems

1588
00:57:30,150 --> 00:57:26,880
however for all the asteroid missions to

1589
00:57:31,030 --> 00:57:30,160
date there have been no in-situ radars

1590
00:57:33,270 --> 00:57:31,040
so

1591
00:57:35,030 --> 00:57:33,280
those were or these are primarily

1592
00:57:37,349 --> 00:57:35,040
science missions and so some of the

1593
00:57:38,549 --> 00:57:37,359
aspects of arm and

1594
00:57:40,069 --> 00:57:38,559
other parts of the initiative are a

1595
00:57:42,549 --> 00:57:40,079
little more pragmatic and so a few other

1596
00:57:44,390 --> 00:57:42,559
utilities of radar

1597
00:57:47,270 --> 00:57:44,400
can come out and contribute

1598
00:57:49,589 --> 00:57:47,280
so the first is radar sounding with the

1599
00:57:51,190 --> 00:57:49,599
simple purpose of mapping the regolith

1600
00:57:53,109 --> 00:57:51,200
so this is to get the internal structure

1601
00:57:55,829 --> 00:57:53,119
the bulk dielectric properties and so by

1602
00:57:57,750 --> 00:57:55,839
extension the density distribution

1603
00:57:59,589 --> 00:57:57,760
where to anchor redirect thrusters where

1604
00:58:01,430 --> 00:57:59,599
to pick up samples or possibly boulders

1605
00:58:02,870 --> 00:58:01,440
and of course help improve trajectory

1606
00:58:04,950 --> 00:58:02,880
estimations

1607
00:58:08,470 --> 00:58:04,960
so radar is the only active modality

1608
00:58:09,589 --> 00:58:08,480
capable of subsurface imaging

1609
00:58:11,270 --> 00:58:09,599
and there are two ways you can think

1610
00:58:13,030 --> 00:58:11,280
about doing this what i would call

1611
00:58:14,710 --> 00:58:13,040
scanline projection so this is like

1612
00:58:16,470 --> 00:58:14,720
ground penetrating radar

1613
00:58:18,150 --> 00:58:16,480
and the other is direct conversion so in

1614
00:58:19,910 --> 00:58:18,160
the first case

1615
00:58:22,069 --> 00:58:19,920
this is

1616
00:58:23,510 --> 00:58:22,079
relatively fast it gives you a basic

1617
00:58:25,670 --> 00:58:23,520
anatomy of what you're looking at

1618
00:58:27,589 --> 00:58:25,680
boundaries

1619
00:58:29,910 --> 00:58:27,599
edges this is similar to the way the

1620
00:58:31,910 --> 00:58:29,920
marxist and chirad mars polar images

1621
00:58:33,430 --> 00:58:31,920
were processed

1622
00:58:34,950 --> 00:58:33,440
the second is dielectric conversion so

1623
00:58:35,750 --> 00:58:34,960
for this you voxelize the body you're

1624
00:58:37,109 --> 00:58:35,760
interested in you have an

1625
00:58:38,630 --> 00:58:37,119
electromagnetic scattering model an

1626
00:58:40,710 --> 00:58:38,640
iterative dielectric estimation

1627
00:58:42,069 --> 00:58:40,720
technique and you solve the inverse

1628
00:58:44,309 --> 00:58:42,079
problem

1629
00:58:46,549 --> 00:58:44,319
so this is a little closer to the way

1630
00:58:48,549 --> 00:58:46,559
rosetta concert is going to be working

1631
00:58:49,990 --> 00:58:48,559
and the advantage of this is it gives

1632
00:58:51,829 --> 00:58:50,000
you the actual physical properties of

1633
00:58:53,510 --> 00:58:51,839
the body of interest

1634
00:58:55,349 --> 00:58:53,520
um the depth of penetration and the

1635
00:58:56,549 --> 00:58:55,359
resolution trade off with frequency but

1636
00:58:58,309 --> 00:58:56,559
generally you need a pretty low

1637
00:59:00,470 --> 00:58:58,319
frequency radar to do sounding so we're

1638
00:59:03,109 --> 00:59:00,480
talking hundreds of megahertz or even

1639
00:59:07,030 --> 00:59:04,710
okay so the next application is

1640
00:59:07,829 --> 00:59:07,040
tomography and you can think of this as

1641
00:59:11,589 --> 00:59:07,839
an

1642
00:59:12,950 --> 00:59:11,599
astrotomography is pretty well

1643
00:59:14,549 --> 00:59:12,960
understood

1644
00:59:16,390 --> 00:59:14,559
the echoes that come back contain range

1645
00:59:18,390 --> 00:59:16,400
information as well as doppler in terms

1646
00:59:19,829 --> 00:59:18,400
of what party asteroid is spinning

1647
00:59:21,030 --> 00:59:19,839
towards your way

1648
00:59:22,470 --> 00:59:21,040
you come back in a series of delay

1649
00:59:24,630 --> 00:59:22,480
doppler images these go into a shape

1650
00:59:26,470 --> 00:59:24,640
reconstruction algorithm and out pop the

1651
00:59:28,630 --> 00:59:26,480
size the shape the spin spin axis your

1652
00:59:29,910 --> 00:59:28,640
range of target the relative motion so

1653
00:59:31,670 --> 00:59:29,920
anything you can think to do with that

1654
00:59:33,270 --> 00:59:31,680
information you can get it from

1655
00:59:34,630 --> 00:59:33,280
radiotomography

1656
00:59:36,710 --> 00:59:34,640
the frequencies are generally a little

1657
00:59:37,829 --> 00:59:36,720
bit higher this is for resolution and

1658
00:59:39,990 --> 00:59:37,839
you don't want it to penetrate too

1659
00:59:42,309 --> 00:59:40,000
deeply and it only requires course

1660
00:59:44,230 --> 00:59:42,319
antenna pointing because

1661
00:59:45,510 --> 00:59:44,240
all the information is contained

1662
00:59:46,789 --> 00:59:45,520
in the echoes

1663
00:59:49,589 --> 00:59:46,799
so there are a lot of computing

1664
00:59:52,069 --> 00:59:49,599
technologies for tomography um

1665
00:59:53,910 --> 00:59:52,079
some things that are

1666
00:59:56,390 --> 00:59:53,920
unique maybe to radar

1667
00:59:57,910 --> 00:59:56,400
uh the first is

1668
01:00:00,549 --> 00:59:57,920
using the doppler and sort of

1669
01:00:03,030 --> 01:00:00,559
differential mode so to reassess rates

1670
01:00:05,030 --> 01:00:03,040
of change of spin due to deflection or

1671
01:00:07,270 --> 01:00:05,040
what have you

1672
01:00:09,750 --> 01:00:07,280
and the second this one's kind of new

1673
01:00:12,789 --> 01:00:09,760
it's to use delay doppler images as a

1674
01:00:14,630 --> 01:00:12,799
form of gps proxy so if you want to give

1675
01:00:16,630 --> 01:00:14,640
the spacecraft a better idea of where it

1676
01:00:18,230 --> 01:00:16,640
was you turn the radar on the body you

1677
01:00:19,750 --> 01:00:18,240
take a couple echoes and you go to a

1678
01:00:22,150 --> 01:00:19,760
table look up and you say okay now here

1679
01:00:23,430 --> 01:00:22,160
i am relative to the body and the

1680
01:00:25,670 --> 01:00:23,440
advantage is this is a direct

1681
01:00:28,630 --> 01:00:25,680
measurement and um

1682
01:00:30,789 --> 01:00:28,640
relatively fast

1683
01:00:32,309 --> 01:00:30,799
so this is the grab bag slide this has

1684
01:00:34,630 --> 01:00:32,319
some other uh

1685
01:00:37,670 --> 01:00:34,640
some overlap with some other sessions

1686
01:00:40,470 --> 01:00:37,680
so if they're gonna be multiple crafts

1687
01:00:41,990 --> 01:00:40,480
moving around rendezvous radar is

1688
01:00:43,510 --> 01:00:42,000
something to use i think the idea would

1689
01:00:46,390 --> 01:00:43,520
be to try to integrate it maybe with the

1690
01:00:48,309 --> 01:00:46,400
sounding radar to save on hardware

1691
01:00:50,230 --> 01:00:48,319
if you have a radar you can always use

1692
01:00:52,230 --> 01:00:50,240
it for altimetry and landing

1693
01:00:54,230 --> 01:00:52,240
the caveat of course in microgravity

1694
01:00:56,870 --> 01:00:54,240
with low velocities

1695
01:00:57,670 --> 01:00:56,880
is that laser rangefinders do just fine

1696
01:01:00,069 --> 01:00:57,680
um

1697
01:01:02,069 --> 01:01:00,079
but you can always use this as a backup

1698
01:01:03,510 --> 01:01:02,079
uh the next uh these two applications

1699
01:01:07,030 --> 01:01:03,520
are sort of

1700
01:01:08,710 --> 01:01:07,040
deflection rather than redirection

1701
01:01:09,990 --> 01:01:08,720
so you have two spacecraft one orbiting

1702
01:01:12,870 --> 01:01:10,000
the body another one that's going to hit

1703
01:01:14,390 --> 01:01:12,880
it you can use the delay doppler and get

1704
01:01:15,910 --> 01:01:14,400
a better sense of how it's now spinning

1705
01:01:17,349 --> 01:01:15,920
or how it's now moving

1706
01:01:18,789 --> 01:01:17,359
the advantage is it could look through

1707
01:01:20,789 --> 01:01:18,799
the ejecta and it can maybe even track

1708
01:01:23,109 --> 01:01:20,799
the ejecta

1709
01:01:24,950 --> 01:01:23,119
and finally

1710
01:01:25,990 --> 01:01:24,960
so this is this is a little different a

1711
01:01:28,470 --> 01:01:26,000
little new

1712
01:01:31,430 --> 01:01:28,480
uh this is a case of uh a single

1713
01:01:33,109 --> 01:01:31,440
spacecraft based uh redeflection impact

1714
01:01:33,990 --> 01:01:33,119
base reflection

1715
01:01:35,430 --> 01:01:34,000
uh

1716
01:01:36,950 --> 01:01:35,440
so let's say you're three to four days

1717
01:01:38,390 --> 01:01:36,960
out from the body you turn the comm

1718
01:01:40,069 --> 01:01:38,400
antenna on the asteroid

1719
01:01:41,910 --> 01:01:40,079
you do the tomography problem

1720
01:01:45,670 --> 01:01:41,920
give the craft an idea of

1721
01:01:49,670 --> 01:01:45,680
where and when exactly it's going to hit

1722
01:01:53,270 --> 01:01:51,670
okay in terms of system configurations

1723
01:01:55,190 --> 01:01:53,280
uh to do tomography and sounding you

1724
01:01:56,470 --> 01:01:55,200
actually only need one antenna which is

1725
01:01:57,829 --> 01:01:56,480
uh kind of nice

1726
01:02:00,069 --> 01:01:57,839
for sounding though it needs its own

1727
01:02:01,349 --> 01:02:00,079
separate low frequency antenna

1728
01:02:02,789 --> 01:02:01,359
um

1729
01:02:04,470 --> 01:02:02,799
if you double up on the communication

1730
01:02:06,549 --> 01:02:04,480
dish you'll be at the higher frequencies

1731
01:02:09,190 --> 01:02:06,559
probably of the dsn and so you're

1732
01:02:11,270 --> 01:02:09,200
limited to some of those applications

1733
01:02:13,990 --> 01:02:11,280
in terms of power what you need to run

1734
01:02:16,710 --> 01:02:14,000
these systems it just goes with range

1735
01:02:19,349 --> 01:02:16,720
to give you some examples

1736
01:02:21,750 --> 01:02:19,359
earth observing radars typically operate

1737
01:02:24,309 --> 01:02:21,760
in one kilowatt peak power range

1738
01:02:25,670 --> 01:02:24,319
airborne systems 10 watts um and if

1739
01:02:27,910 --> 01:02:25,680
you're really close for whatever reason

1740
01:02:29,349 --> 01:02:27,920
you could use your cell phone

1741
01:02:30,390 --> 01:02:29,359
and so

1742
01:02:32,390 --> 01:02:30,400
uh

1743
01:02:34,309 --> 01:02:32,400
scanline sounding ultimate retargeting

1744
01:02:36,230 --> 01:02:34,319
and some tomography there are candidates

1745
01:02:37,589 --> 01:02:36,240
for onboard processing uh direct

1746
01:02:38,870 --> 01:02:37,599
conversion and more sophisticated

1747
01:02:40,390 --> 01:02:38,880
demography are probably gonna have to be

1748
01:02:42,390 --> 01:02:40,400
sent back

1749
01:02:43,270 --> 01:02:42,400
and um i'll just wrap this up by saying

1750
01:02:44,630 --> 01:02:43,280
that

1751
01:02:45,589 --> 01:02:44,640
you know electromagnetic scattering

1752
01:02:50,630 --> 01:02:45,599
models

1753
01:02:52,230 --> 01:02:50,640
have gotten to the point where we can

1754
01:02:56,470 --> 01:02:52,240
actually simulate these systems end to

1755
01:02:57,990 --> 01:02:56,480
end before turning a screw and so we can

1756
01:02:59,670 --> 01:02:58,000
tweak the frequencies really assess

1757
01:03:03,589 --> 01:02:59,680
whether or not they're going to work at

1758
01:03:07,670 --> 01:03:05,349
so that's it again these applications

1759
01:03:10,870 --> 01:03:07,680
were mostly uh characterization and

1760
01:03:18,390 --> 01:03:10,880
avionics based and

1761
01:03:18,400 --> 01:03:28,069
okay we've got time for questions

1762
01:03:34,870 --> 01:03:31,349
see any online although we are delayed a

1763
01:03:34,880 --> 01:03:38,870
yep i got one

1764
01:03:42,549 --> 01:03:40,710
is there is there any advantage of

1765
01:03:44,950 --> 01:03:42,559
having a lot of power you know you said

1766
01:03:46,630 --> 01:03:44,960
a kilowatt from earth orbiting systems

1767
01:03:48,789 --> 01:03:46,640
but we're gonna have a spacecraft that

1768
01:03:51,349 --> 01:03:48,799
might have a lot of power

1769
01:03:52,549 --> 01:03:51,359
will that provide you any advantages oh

1770
01:03:53,670 --> 01:03:52,559
yeah

1771
01:03:56,390 --> 01:03:53,680
um

1772
01:03:58,789 --> 01:03:56,400
uh snr it will always help

1773
01:04:00,950 --> 01:03:58,799
and then you can just do these um

1774
01:04:03,910 --> 01:04:00,960
you can have much uh higher orbits you

1775
01:04:13,349 --> 01:04:03,920
can do the same work much further away

1776
01:04:16,710 --> 01:04:14,950
all right thank you

1777
01:04:18,390 --> 01:04:16,720
all right let's see

1778
01:04:19,270 --> 01:04:18,400
we got to check um

1779
01:04:22,069 --> 01:04:19,280
we

1780
01:04:26,069 --> 01:04:22,079
had intended the next presenter to be um

1781
01:04:26,079 --> 01:04:32,230
is

1782
01:04:35,190 --> 01:04:33,510
okay great

1783
01:04:38,069 --> 01:04:35,200
thank you

1784
01:04:43,470 --> 01:04:40,870
paul is a project manager for mda

1785
01:04:45,990 --> 01:04:43,480
mda of course is the uh

1786
01:04:47,510 --> 01:04:46,000
macdonald associates is the canadian

1787
01:04:50,309 --> 01:04:47,520
space agency prime contractor for

1788
01:04:52,549 --> 01:04:50,319
robotics on space shuttle and iss

1789
01:04:53,910 --> 01:04:52,559
paul will be discussing how the arm can

1790
01:04:55,349 --> 01:04:53,920
benefit from state-of-the-art

1791
01:04:57,750 --> 01:04:55,359
developments in the area of rendezvous

1792
01:05:00,549 --> 01:04:57,760
and proxima proximity operations and in

1793
01:05:02,870 --> 01:05:00,559
satellite servicing domains well

1794
01:05:05,190 --> 01:05:02,880
okay thank you everybody um so we

1795
01:05:06,630 --> 01:05:05,200
started off uh looking at this problem

1796
01:05:08,950 --> 01:05:06,640
we had a good time by the way looking at

1797
01:05:11,750 --> 01:05:08,960
this problem but we broke it down the

1798
01:05:13,829 --> 01:05:11,760
same way we would break down any

1799
01:05:14,789 --> 01:05:13,839
satellite operation that we've done in

1800
01:05:16,789 --> 01:05:14,799
the past

1801
01:05:19,349 --> 01:05:16,799
so we broke it down into rendezvous

1802
01:05:20,950 --> 01:05:19,359
proximity operations and capture

1803
01:05:23,109 --> 01:05:20,960
today's presentation is on the

1804
01:05:24,470 --> 01:05:23,119
rendezvous and the proximity operations

1805
01:05:27,829 --> 01:05:24,480
and tomorrow i will be giving a

1806
01:05:33,109 --> 01:05:30,950
so just to give a very quick overview

1807
01:05:35,349 --> 01:05:33,119
mda has been focused on these type of

1808
01:05:37,750 --> 01:05:35,359
activities for decades

1809
01:05:40,470 --> 01:05:37,760
so it started back in the 70s with the

1810
01:05:42,309 --> 01:05:40,480
development of canadarm or srms for the

1811
01:05:43,190 --> 01:05:42,319
shuttle program

1812
01:05:44,470 --> 01:05:43,200
and

1813
01:05:45,670 --> 01:05:44,480
includes

1814
01:05:47,510 --> 01:05:45,680
significant

1815
01:05:48,950 --> 01:05:47,520
rendezvous and capture of the hubble

1816
01:05:51,670 --> 01:05:48,960
space telescope

1817
01:05:54,150 --> 01:05:51,680
four times from from the shuttle

1818
01:05:57,910 --> 01:05:54,160
we've also actually captured the shuttle

1819
01:05:59,510 --> 01:05:57,920
from station using canadarm2 as well

1820
01:06:01,430 --> 01:05:59,520
then we've done different developments

1821
01:06:03,430 --> 01:06:01,440
and i'll echo some of the sentiments of

1822
01:06:04,470 --> 01:06:03,440
other folks here but we

1823
01:06:07,990 --> 01:06:04,480
provided

1824
01:06:09,910 --> 01:06:08,000
scanning lidar systems for xss-11

1825
01:06:13,750 --> 01:06:09,920
and the robotic

1826
01:06:15,910 --> 01:06:13,760
autonomous systems for orbital express

1827
01:06:17,910 --> 01:06:15,920
in recent times the canadian space

1828
01:06:20,309 --> 01:06:17,920
agency has invested over 50 million

1829
01:06:22,950 --> 01:06:20,319
dollars in in prototyping for what they

1830
01:06:26,870 --> 01:06:22,960
call the next generation canadarm

1831
01:06:31,270 --> 01:06:26,880
and in all of that it uh it has included

1832
01:06:33,990 --> 01:06:31,280
rendezvous and proximity operations

1833
01:06:35,430 --> 01:06:34,000
so so just to draw the parallels and i

1834
01:06:38,470 --> 01:06:35,440
know that everybody's walked through

1835
01:06:40,470 --> 01:06:38,480
this as well the the typical operational

1836
01:06:42,069 --> 01:06:40,480
steps include long range and short range

1837
01:06:44,470 --> 01:06:42,079
rendezvous

1838
01:06:47,829 --> 01:06:44,480
scanning and mapping rate matching close

1839
01:06:50,230 --> 01:06:47,839
proximity operations etc

1840
01:06:51,910 --> 01:06:50,240
and uh just on the right we're showing

1841
01:06:54,470 --> 01:06:51,920
some of the heritage that we have in

1842
01:06:57,190 --> 01:06:54,480
addressing that

1843
01:06:58,230 --> 01:06:57,200
so for the next section uh on the

1844
01:06:59,589 --> 01:06:58,240
integrated

1845
01:07:02,069 --> 01:06:59,599
sensor suite

1846
01:07:04,230 --> 01:07:02,079
uh focus on on these aspects of the

1847
01:07:06,069 --> 01:07:04,240
conops

1848
01:07:07,670 --> 01:07:06,079
so

1849
01:07:10,630 --> 01:07:07,680
i i believe the gentleman from ball

1850
01:07:12,069 --> 01:07:10,640
aerospace had almost the exact same uh

1851
01:07:13,589 --> 01:07:12,079
instrument suite which i think is good

1852
01:07:15,190 --> 01:07:13,599
we're starting to synthesize we're all

1853
01:07:18,230 --> 01:07:15,200
starting to come together

1854
01:07:20,950 --> 01:07:18,240
what we were proposing was for far field

1855
01:07:22,470 --> 01:07:20,960
long range to have a narrow angle

1856
01:07:24,390 --> 01:07:22,480
camera

1857
01:07:26,470 --> 01:07:24,400
that picks up bearing information and

1858
01:07:28,710 --> 01:07:26,480
then as you get closer you actually

1859
01:07:32,150 --> 01:07:28,720
combine the narrow angle camera with a

1860
01:07:34,549 --> 01:07:32,160
lidar and the laser altimeter that mda

1861
01:07:37,349 --> 01:07:34,559
is developing for osiris-rex would be

1862
01:07:39,510 --> 01:07:37,359
coupled with the narrow angle camera

1863
01:07:41,430 --> 01:07:39,520
which would give you bearing and range

1864
01:07:44,069 --> 01:07:41,440
and then as you get closer you'd have a

1865
01:07:45,510 --> 01:07:44,079
wider angle camera

1866
01:07:47,589 --> 01:07:45,520
that begins to give you detailed

1867
01:07:49,829 --> 01:07:47,599
features of the asteroid and then that

1868
01:07:52,549 --> 01:07:49,839
would be coupled with flashlighter

1869
01:07:53,990 --> 01:07:52,559
and mda has been doing work

1870
01:07:56,309 --> 01:07:54,000
similar to

1871
01:07:57,670 --> 01:07:56,319
slam or simultaneous localization and

1872
01:07:59,029 --> 01:07:57,680
mapping

1873
01:08:01,190 --> 01:07:59,039
we have

1874
01:08:05,109 --> 01:08:01,200
two coupled

1875
01:08:07,270 --> 01:08:05,119
phonak robots in a lab where we

1876
01:08:08,789 --> 01:08:07,280
basically generate models using

1877
01:08:11,430 --> 01:08:08,799
three-dimensional and two-dimensional

1878
01:08:13,510 --> 01:08:11,440
data we generate those models we port

1879
01:08:17,910 --> 01:08:13,520
them back and use the models to do close

1880
01:08:21,510 --> 01:08:19,430
also following down the concept of

1881
01:08:23,829 --> 01:08:21,520
operations to look at close proximity

1882
01:08:26,149 --> 01:08:23,839
capture and autonomy

1883
01:08:28,630 --> 01:08:26,159
mda has done a lot of work not only in

1884
01:08:30,550 --> 01:08:28,640
orbital robotics but also in rover

1885
01:08:32,709 --> 01:08:30,560
systems

1886
01:08:34,070 --> 01:08:32,719
and

1887
01:08:35,910 --> 01:08:34,080
just to give you an idea of the state of

1888
01:08:37,829 --> 01:08:35,920
the arts so on the international space

1889
01:08:39,430 --> 01:08:37,839
station right now there's the dexter

1890
01:08:41,590 --> 01:08:39,440
robot or what we call the special

1891
01:08:43,430 --> 01:08:41,600
purpose dexterous manipulator

1892
01:08:44,229 --> 01:08:43,440
and canadarm2

1893
01:08:46,229 --> 01:08:44,239
and

1894
01:08:48,149 --> 01:08:46,239
those

1895
01:08:50,309 --> 01:08:48,159
robots are currently being operated from

1896
01:08:52,470 --> 01:08:50,319
the ground so to give an idea of where

1897
01:08:53,910 --> 01:08:52,480
it's come to originally they had to have

1898
01:08:57,030 --> 01:08:53,920
the operator in the loop in close

1899
01:08:58,550 --> 01:08:57,040
proximity now the ground crew is at

1900
01:09:01,669 --> 01:08:58,560
johnson space center or the canadian

1901
01:09:03,590 --> 01:09:01,679
space agency the astronauts are asleep

1902
01:09:06,470 --> 01:09:03,600
and they they begin to go and do all

1903
01:09:10,309 --> 01:09:06,480
these dexterous tasks

1904
01:09:13,189 --> 01:09:10,319
at uh goddard also mentioned the rrm

1905
01:09:14,950 --> 01:09:13,199
mission or the robotic refueling mission

1906
01:09:17,189 --> 01:09:14,960
uh that focused on unprepared and

1907
01:09:20,550 --> 01:09:17,199
uncooperative capture

1908
01:09:23,189 --> 01:09:20,560
fill and drain valve refueling and mli

1909
01:09:25,189 --> 01:09:23,199
blanket removal and again all of those

1910
01:09:27,349 --> 01:09:25,199
all of those tasks were done

1911
01:09:28,550 --> 01:09:27,359
with a 15 degree of freedom manipulator

1912
01:09:29,749 --> 01:09:28,560
on the end of

1913
01:09:31,590 --> 01:09:29,759
a

1914
01:09:34,229 --> 01:09:31,600
30 foot long

1915
01:09:36,390 --> 01:09:34,239
canadarm2 operated from the ground all

1916
01:09:38,470 --> 01:09:36,400
happening successfully

1917
01:09:41,269 --> 01:09:38,480
mda has also been looking at low

1918
01:09:43,030 --> 01:09:41,279
bandwidth high latency situations

1919
01:09:44,870 --> 01:09:43,040
and we've had a variety of contracts

1920
01:09:47,189 --> 01:09:44,880
with the canadian space agency looking

1921
01:09:49,590 --> 01:09:47,199
at variable autonomy and variable

1922
01:09:53,030 --> 01:09:49,600
autonomy we consider it a spectrum

1923
01:09:54,709 --> 01:09:53,040
and it ranges from teleoperation to

1924
01:09:57,030 --> 01:09:54,719
rigorous rehearsed

1925
01:09:58,390 --> 01:09:57,040
scripted operations to supervised

1926
01:10:00,630 --> 01:09:58,400
autonomy

1927
01:10:02,709 --> 01:10:00,640
not dissimilar to how the curiosity

1928
01:10:05,350 --> 01:10:02,719
rover landed on mars that there comes a

1929
01:10:07,270 --> 01:10:05,360
point where operator in the loop does no

1930
01:10:09,110 --> 01:10:07,280
longer make sense

1931
01:10:10,870 --> 01:10:09,120
via ground control we've actually

1932
01:10:13,350 --> 01:10:10,880
demonstrated this in conjunction with

1933
01:10:15,030 --> 01:10:13,360
boeing for orbital express

1934
01:10:17,590 --> 01:10:15,040
where the manipulator

1935
01:10:21,910 --> 01:10:17,600
close the loop with cameras as the

1936
01:10:26,790 --> 01:10:23,910
and i don't have a concluding slide just

1937
01:10:32,630 --> 01:10:26,800
for the sake of time

1938
01:10:36,310 --> 01:10:35,350
um we have time for questions

1939
01:10:39,030 --> 01:10:36,320
if

1940
01:10:40,709 --> 01:10:39,040
any in the room or virtually

1941
01:10:43,189 --> 01:10:40,719
there is a question here

1942
01:10:44,870 --> 01:10:43,199
why uh the user sorry

1943
01:10:47,030 --> 01:10:44,880
why the use of both a scanning and a

1944
01:11:06,390 --> 01:10:47,040
flash lighter

1945
01:11:09,830 --> 01:11:08,470
it gives you

1946
01:11:12,149 --> 01:11:09,840
your six degrees of freedom

1947
01:11:14,229 --> 01:11:12,159
instantaneous estimation similar to that

1948
01:11:16,390 --> 01:11:14,239
of a video camera

1949
01:11:17,750 --> 01:11:16,400
and then you you match that model with

1950
01:11:20,630 --> 01:11:17,760
the model that you've

1951
01:11:22,149 --> 01:11:20,640
created using your your laser altimeter

1952
01:11:31,430 --> 01:11:22,159
or your scanning ladder

1953
01:11:34,790 --> 01:11:33,510
i don't think i can answer that

1954
01:11:38,390 --> 01:11:34,800
i don't think i'm able to answer that

1955
01:11:38,400 --> 01:11:43,510
go ahead if you could go to a mic please

1956
01:11:49,110 --> 01:11:45,830
it's a quick one uh no one so far has

1957
01:11:51,669 --> 01:11:49,120
mentioned the use of automotive radars

1958
01:11:55,030 --> 01:11:51,679
in the rendezvous but tyvac were funded

1959
01:11:56,870 --> 01:11:55,040
to do this under the edison call last

1960
01:12:03,750 --> 01:11:56,880
year i believe and it seems like it's a

1961
01:12:07,030 --> 01:12:05,990
automotive radars uh

1962
01:12:12,229 --> 01:12:07,040
i'm

1963
01:12:14,390 --> 01:12:12,239
to that anyone else want to come in yes

1964
01:12:19,430 --> 01:12:14,400
really high frequencies if you could go

1965
01:12:23,750 --> 01:12:21,590
automotive radars uh they tend to work

1966
01:12:25,270 --> 01:12:23,760
it who asks the question

1967
01:12:26,229 --> 01:12:25,280
anyway sorry

1968
01:12:27,910 --> 01:12:26,239
they tend to work at really high

1969
01:12:29,350 --> 01:12:27,920
frequencies and so they're you know

1970
01:12:30,790 --> 01:12:29,360
expensive and

1971
01:12:32,470 --> 01:12:30,800
but um

1972
01:12:34,149 --> 01:12:32,480
but uh the rendezvous is mostly in the

1973
01:12:35,750 --> 01:12:34,159
protocol i think a lot of that so you

1974
01:12:40,310 --> 01:12:35,760
can still use the antennas and still use

1975
01:12:50,149 --> 01:12:42,390
anything else

1976
01:12:56,229 --> 01:12:52,870
david gump is our next speaker

1977
01:12:58,550 --> 01:12:56,239
david is ceo of deep space industries

1978
01:13:00,310 --> 01:12:58,560
dsi is focusing on low-cost scouting

1979
01:13:01,830 --> 01:13:00,320
missions to characterize asteroid

1980
01:13:03,110 --> 01:13:01,840
resources

1981
01:13:05,030 --> 01:13:03,120
and developing and parallel the

1982
01:13:07,270 --> 01:13:05,040
technologies to process asteroid

1983
01:13:09,189 --> 01:13:07,280
material into useful products

1984
01:13:11,590 --> 01:13:09,199
his presentation outlines reasons for

1985
01:13:13,350 --> 01:13:11,600
replacing the textile return of a small

1986
01:13:16,390 --> 01:13:13,360
asteroid with a mission that returns

1987
01:13:17,669 --> 01:13:16,400
multiple samples from a larger target

1988
01:13:20,070 --> 01:13:17,679
the goal is achievement of better

1989
01:13:21,910 --> 01:13:20,080
results for both science and industry

1990
01:13:24,390 --> 01:13:21,920
while reducing several types of mission

1991
01:13:28,709 --> 01:13:26,630
thank you

1992
01:13:31,669 --> 01:13:28,719
the textile approach the baseline that

1993
01:13:33,350 --> 01:13:31,679
nasa has now i think has unacceptable

1994
01:13:35,750 --> 01:13:33,360
risk for

1995
01:13:38,149 --> 01:13:35,760
failure because if all you're going on

1996
01:13:39,590 --> 01:13:38,159
is the magnitude

1997
01:13:44,070 --> 01:13:39,600
the

1998
01:13:45,990 --> 01:13:44,080
for say 200 tons return could encounter

1999
01:13:47,990 --> 01:13:46,000
very easily something at 500 tons or a

2000
01:13:50,390 --> 01:13:48,000
thousand tons

2001
01:13:52,070 --> 01:13:50,400
even if your target has been

2002
01:13:54,390 --> 01:13:52,080
considerate and actually flown by earth

2003
01:13:57,669 --> 01:13:54,400
for a rater observation you still only

2004
01:13:58,790 --> 01:13:57,679
know volume you don't know mass

2005
01:14:00,229 --> 01:13:58,800
the other point i'd like to make during

2006
01:14:02,390 --> 01:14:00,239
the presentation is that scouting

2007
01:14:04,390 --> 01:14:02,400
missions are really essential to bring

2008
01:14:06,550 --> 01:14:04,400
down mass uncertainty as well as other

2009
01:14:08,790 --> 01:14:06,560
uncertainties

2010
01:14:10,790 --> 01:14:08,800
we also believe that

2011
01:14:11,750 --> 01:14:10,800
you ought to be fishing where the fish

2012
01:14:13,830 --> 01:14:11,760
are

2013
01:14:16,470 --> 01:14:13,840
you know the vast majority of asteroids

2014
01:14:19,270 --> 01:14:16,480
are not seven meters in size

2015
01:14:21,270 --> 01:14:19,280
and for repeatability and sustainability

2016
01:14:23,990 --> 01:14:21,280
you ought to have a gathering of

2017
01:14:27,350 --> 01:14:24,000
materials approach which is applicable

2018
01:14:29,189 --> 01:14:27,360
to a vast range of asteroid sizes not

2019
01:14:31,189 --> 01:14:29,199
just the special case

2020
01:14:33,590 --> 01:14:31,199
and besides this just easier and we

2021
01:14:36,070 --> 01:14:33,600
ought to be going easier on this than

2022
01:14:37,669 --> 01:14:36,080
making our life hard to detect

2023
01:14:39,189 --> 01:14:37,679
to get enough photons to actually do

2024
01:14:41,430 --> 01:14:39,199
characterization

2025
01:14:43,030 --> 01:14:41,440
when you're out in the deep dark

2026
01:14:44,630 --> 01:14:43,040
people have already pointed out that

2027
01:14:47,510 --> 01:14:44,640
it's going to be hard to actually

2028
01:14:49,430 --> 01:14:47,520
acquire for closing the target if it's

2029
01:14:50,790 --> 01:14:49,440
an extremely tiny one

2030
01:14:53,189 --> 01:14:50,800
large

2031
01:14:54,630 --> 01:14:53,199
neos are easier to land on because they

2032
01:14:57,350 --> 01:14:54,640
spin slower

2033
01:14:59,830 --> 01:14:57,360
and perhaps most importantly

2034
01:15:02,390 --> 01:14:59,840
congress your customer has said they are

2035
01:15:04,229 --> 01:15:02,400
interested in medium and large asteroids

2036
01:15:07,990 --> 01:15:04,239
things big enough to kill their

2037
01:15:11,189 --> 01:15:09,590
they want them both detected and

2038
01:15:12,390 --> 01:15:11,199
characterized which scouting missions

2039
01:15:13,990 --> 01:15:12,400
can do

2040
01:15:16,310 --> 01:15:14,000
we don't have any photographs of things

2041
01:15:18,790 --> 01:15:16,320
a little smaller than 500 meters

2042
01:15:21,110 --> 01:15:18,800
and so we don't know if they do in fact

2043
01:15:23,510 --> 01:15:21,120
transition from rubble piles down to

2044
01:15:25,669 --> 01:15:23,520
monoliths or whether they stay monoliths

2045
01:15:27,590 --> 01:15:25,679
down stay rubble piles down to smaller

2046
01:15:31,990 --> 01:15:27,600
sizes

2047
01:15:35,830 --> 01:15:32,000
angeles or you know really mess with

2048
01:15:40,550 --> 01:15:38,630
so we think in general terms because of

2049
01:15:43,110 --> 01:15:40,560
all these questions you ought to design

2050
01:15:44,870 --> 01:15:43,120
the program both for the retrieval

2051
01:15:47,270 --> 01:15:44,880
mission and for scouting missions before

2052
01:15:48,229 --> 01:15:47,280
you leap into designing a specific

2053
01:15:49,990 --> 01:15:48,239
mission

2054
01:15:52,709 --> 01:15:50,000
and there ought to be demonstrated a

2055
01:15:55,750 --> 01:15:52,719
method that's generally useful and not

2056
01:15:58,390 --> 01:15:55,760
limited to rare situations of of small

2057
01:15:59,590 --> 01:15:58,400
asteroids coupled with a billion dollar

2058
01:16:01,990 --> 01:15:59,600
sls

2059
01:16:03,270 --> 01:16:02,000
that is not a sustainable approach we

2060
01:16:05,110 --> 01:16:03,280
don't believe

2061
01:16:06,950 --> 01:16:05,120
we think the basic program that we would

2062
01:16:09,430 --> 01:16:06,960
propose would be modeled on cots you've

2063
01:16:12,149 --> 01:16:09,440
now got two successful cuts

2064
01:16:15,590 --> 01:16:12,159
systems in operation as well as the the

2065
01:16:17,350 --> 01:16:15,600
iled that nasa has a in place for the

2066
01:16:19,110 --> 01:16:17,360
google lunar xprize

2067
01:16:21,350 --> 01:16:19,120
competitors

2068
01:16:22,950 --> 01:16:21,360
very simple you do fixed price and below

2069
01:16:24,070 --> 01:16:22,960
cost so there has to be private

2070
01:16:26,229 --> 01:16:24,080
investment

2071
01:16:28,390 --> 01:16:26,239
companies competing companies get paid

2072
01:16:29,430 --> 01:16:28,400
for achieving milestones and not just

2073
01:16:31,350 --> 01:16:29,440
submitting

2074
01:16:34,470 --> 01:16:31,360
monthly invoices

2075
01:16:37,030 --> 01:16:34,480
nasa would specify what it needs for its

2076
01:16:39,350 --> 01:16:37,040
applications and its needs and industry

2077
01:16:41,990 --> 01:16:39,360
would fund the delta for everything else

2078
01:16:43,030 --> 01:16:42,000
in the fullness of time most likely

2079
01:16:44,630 --> 01:16:43,040
on a

2080
01:16:46,229 --> 01:16:44,640
nasa would be

2081
01:16:48,550 --> 01:16:46,239
forced through budget

2082
01:16:51,030 --> 01:16:48,560
requirements to go for a disposable

2083
01:16:53,350 --> 01:16:51,040
spacecraft

2084
01:16:56,070 --> 01:16:53,360
industry to serve commercial needs

2085
01:16:58,630 --> 01:16:56,080
ongoing wants a reusable spacecraft

2086
01:17:01,510 --> 01:16:58,640
industry would pay for the delta between

2087
01:17:03,430 --> 01:17:01,520
what's required to support nasa's needs

2088
01:17:05,030 --> 01:17:03,440
and what's necessary for commercial

2089
01:17:06,950 --> 01:17:05,040
markets

2090
01:17:08,950 --> 01:17:06,960
and the resulting system then is

2091
01:17:11,110 --> 01:17:08,960
sustainable it's in place it's serving

2092
01:17:13,910 --> 01:17:11,120
commercial customers for propellant and

2093
01:17:16,709 --> 01:17:13,920
for materials in orbit if there's a year

2094
01:17:19,110 --> 01:17:16,719
or two pause in nasa funding for for

2095
01:17:23,430 --> 01:17:19,120
asteroid missions nothing comes to a

2096
01:17:28,550 --> 01:17:25,669
another good thing about the gather

2097
01:17:30,709 --> 01:17:28,560
materials approach is that the arv size

2098
01:17:32,870 --> 01:17:30,719
is independent of the asteroid size you

2099
01:17:34,470 --> 01:17:32,880
could do smaller arvs

2100
01:17:35,590 --> 01:17:34,480
in the early days to reduce mission

2101
01:17:37,270 --> 01:17:35,600
costs

2102
01:17:39,189 --> 01:17:37,280
and the collection process can be

2103
01:17:40,870 --> 01:17:39,199
selective

2104
01:17:42,950 --> 01:17:40,880
there are different colored boulders on

2105
01:17:45,110 --> 01:17:42,960
iroquois hitacaba for example you might

2106
01:17:46,870 --> 01:17:45,120
want to go for a specific color you

2107
01:17:49,110 --> 01:17:46,880
might want to go for sand and gravel

2108
01:17:51,430 --> 01:17:49,120
because the processing step that you're

2109
01:17:53,189 --> 01:17:51,440
going to bring it back to put it into

2110
01:17:55,510 --> 01:17:53,199
would like it already crushed you can

2111
01:17:57,590 --> 01:17:55,520
gather the already crushed materials if

2112
01:17:59,910 --> 01:17:57,600
you've developed at the beginning a

2113
01:18:01,669 --> 01:17:59,920
gathering of materials approach as to as

2114
01:18:03,830 --> 01:18:01,679
opposed to a swallowing of an asteroid

2115
01:18:06,149 --> 01:18:03,840
approach

2116
01:18:08,550 --> 01:18:06,159
we believe scouting missions can

2117
01:18:11,350 --> 01:18:08,560
collectively among them deliver

2118
01:18:12,550 --> 01:18:11,360
as much material as orion's 100 kilogram

2119
01:18:14,630 --> 01:18:12,560
return limit

2120
01:18:16,229 --> 01:18:14,640
and to be coming from diverse sources

2121
01:18:18,229 --> 01:18:16,239
better for scientists better for

2122
01:18:20,149 --> 01:18:18,239
resource discovery

2123
01:18:21,830 --> 01:18:20,159
you know you'll get much richer data

2124
01:18:24,790 --> 01:18:21,840
from that kind of approach to supplying

2125
01:18:28,070 --> 01:18:24,800
things for the orion sls flight

2126
01:18:30,630 --> 01:18:28,080
we've done some of the initial math

2127
01:18:32,310 --> 01:18:30,640
on this chart the vertical is kilometers

2128
01:18:34,070 --> 01:18:32,320
per second delta v

2129
01:18:36,229 --> 01:18:34,080
we've found as a rule of thumb the

2130
01:18:39,350 --> 01:18:36,239
outbound delta v and the inbound return

2131
01:18:42,550 --> 01:18:39,360
delta v are roughly the same

2132
01:18:46,630 --> 01:18:42,560
this is starting from uh c3 of zero when

2133
01:18:50,470 --> 01:18:48,229
you could launch a scout mission with

2134
01:18:52,790 --> 01:18:50,480
that first arrow in 2015

2135
01:18:54,390 --> 01:18:52,800
it would get there a year later in 2016

2136
01:18:57,350 --> 01:18:54,400
at the second area you gather some

2137
01:18:59,510 --> 01:18:57,360
material you get back a year later in in

2138
01:19:01,590 --> 01:18:59,520
2017

2139
01:19:03,750 --> 01:19:01,600
and then you have a full year to analyze

2140
01:19:05,830 --> 01:19:03,760
that material before you have to launch

2141
01:19:08,390 --> 01:19:05,840
the retrieval mission with only about

2142
01:19:10,550 --> 01:19:08,400
two kilometers per second required it

2143
01:19:12,470 --> 01:19:10,560
takes a year to to get there and then

2144
01:19:13,990 --> 01:19:12,480
you have quite a bit of time before you

2145
01:19:15,750 --> 01:19:14,000
have to do your return you could

2146
01:19:19,510 --> 01:19:15,760
actually return for less than two

2147
01:19:20,390 --> 01:19:19,520
kilometers per second that's 2001 gp

2148
01:19:22,870 --> 01:19:20,400
two

2149
01:19:26,310 --> 01:19:22,880
this this other one track we've done uh

2150
01:19:29,030 --> 01:19:26,320
2013 bs45 is very convenient you could

2151
01:19:31,910 --> 01:19:29,040
do scout missions at several points

2152
01:19:34,229 --> 01:19:31,920
along this this track and still have

2153
01:19:37,669 --> 01:19:34,239
time in the outer years to do your arn

2154
01:19:41,910 --> 01:19:37,679
mission again at a fairly low

2155
01:19:44,310 --> 01:19:42,790
so

2156
01:19:46,070 --> 01:19:44,320
we think that if you

2157
01:19:48,310 --> 01:19:46,080
design this program so it serves both

2158
01:19:50,470 --> 01:19:48,320
nasa and commercial needs nasa will get

2159
01:19:52,149 --> 01:19:50,480
the propellant and materials in orbit

2160
01:19:54,229 --> 01:19:52,159
that it needs to make getting to mars

2161
01:19:56,630 --> 01:19:54,239
less expensive industry gets what it

2162
01:19:59,189 --> 01:19:56,640
needs for its grandiose plans

2163
01:20:01,270 --> 01:19:59,199
and everyone benefits it's synergistic

2164
01:20:03,750 --> 01:20:01,280
and in the short term what we need to do

2165
01:20:05,830 --> 01:20:03,760
is commission several precursors to do

2166
01:20:07,910 --> 01:20:05,840
rendezvous and sample return missions

2167
01:20:09,350 --> 01:20:07,920
previous speakers have have

2168
01:20:11,669 --> 01:20:09,360
described

2169
01:20:14,390 --> 01:20:11,679
ar arvs

2170
01:20:15,990 --> 01:20:14,400
loaded with instruments just to find out

2171
01:20:18,950 --> 01:20:16,000
what the mass of the target that they're

2172
01:20:20,790 --> 01:20:18,960
already committed to getting would be

2173
01:20:22,390 --> 01:20:20,800
you need that information

2174
01:20:24,550 --> 01:20:22,400
before you launch

2175
01:20:26,070 --> 01:20:24,560
before you've committed to that target

2176
01:20:27,430 --> 01:20:26,080
the other thing we think we need in the

2177
01:20:29,430 --> 01:20:27,440
short term as a

2178
01:20:31,669 --> 01:20:29,440
baa for

2179
01:20:33,750 --> 01:20:31,679
asteroid recovery mission ideas

2180
01:20:35,030 --> 01:20:33,760
on on how to gather mission material

2181
01:20:37,430 --> 01:20:35,040
from any size

2182
01:20:40,390 --> 01:20:37,440
nea and and how to structure it so it

2183
01:20:41,669 --> 01:20:40,400
works on an industry based approach

2184
01:20:44,470 --> 01:20:41,679
and

2185
01:20:47,270 --> 01:20:44,480
finally with arv size unhitched from

2186
01:20:49,350 --> 01:20:47,280
from asteroid size

2187
01:20:50,870 --> 01:20:49,360
we should be optimizing for for the

2188
01:20:53,669 --> 01:20:50,880
least cost

2189
01:20:55,110 --> 01:20:53,679
it's it's very grand to set a really big

2190
01:20:57,350 --> 01:20:55,120
technical goal

2191
01:21:00,550 --> 01:20:57,360
like a you know a gigawatt of onboard

2192
01:21:01,910 --> 01:21:00,560
power for your iron propulsion

2193
01:21:04,070 --> 01:21:01,920
but if that turns out to cost you a

2194
01:21:06,229 --> 01:21:04,080
billion dollars a mission

2195
01:21:08,310 --> 01:21:06,239
you might do it once but you'll never do

2196
01:21:10,070 --> 01:21:08,320
it again

2197
01:21:12,470 --> 01:21:10,080
in the future where all of us will have

2198
01:21:14,310 --> 01:21:12,480
to be much more sensitive to designing

2199
01:21:15,590 --> 01:21:14,320
least cost combinations that can be

2200
01:21:17,110 --> 01:21:15,600
sustained

2201
01:21:18,870 --> 01:21:17,120
versus

2202
01:21:19,910 --> 01:21:18,880
setting a technical goal that's really

2203
01:21:21,910 --> 01:21:19,920
ambitious

2204
01:21:23,510 --> 01:21:21,920
and hoping that in the fullness of time

2205
01:21:24,709 --> 01:21:23,520
that results in a capability that can be

2206
01:21:34,310 --> 01:21:24,719
used again

2207
01:21:39,510 --> 01:21:37,110
okay do we have a question

2208
01:21:42,070 --> 01:21:39,520
is is there a business model for

2209
01:21:43,910 --> 01:21:42,080
paying you by the kilogram

2210
01:21:46,470 --> 01:21:43,920
yes for return of sample

2211
01:21:48,149 --> 01:21:46,480
yes that on a per kilogram basis you

2212
01:21:49,590 --> 01:21:48,159
know will be a lot cheaper than

2213
01:21:51,030 --> 01:21:49,600
osiris-rex

2214
01:21:51,830 --> 01:21:51,040
um

2215
01:21:53,830 --> 01:21:51,840
and

2216
01:21:56,470 --> 01:21:53,840
it's valuable to both parties we'll

2217
01:21:57,910 --> 01:21:56,480
we'll need samples for our own needs we

2218
01:21:59,669 --> 01:21:57,920
we want to supply propellant to

2219
01:22:01,830 --> 01:21:59,679
communication satellites to transfer

2220
01:22:03,669 --> 01:22:01,840
stages you know a lot of the the new

2221
01:22:06,070 --> 01:22:03,679
launch vehicles that rely on on air

2222
01:22:07,350 --> 01:22:06,080
launch they have a ceiling on how much

2223
01:22:11,430 --> 01:22:07,360
they can launch

2224
01:22:12,870 --> 01:22:11,440
just to leo and use a transfer stage

2225
01:22:15,350 --> 01:22:12,880
that's space-based

2226
01:22:16,709 --> 01:22:15,360
refueled from asteroid resources

2227
01:22:18,790 --> 01:22:16,719
they gain a whole other order of

2228
01:22:21,030 --> 01:22:18,800
magnitude capabilities so we think

2229
01:22:27,990 --> 01:22:21,040
there's a lot of commercial demand for

2230
01:22:28,000 --> 01:22:31,270
anything other questions

2231
01:22:31,280 --> 01:22:36,390
thanks

2232
01:22:42,950 --> 01:22:40,950
okay um our last presenter um in the

2233
01:22:45,750 --> 01:22:42,960
formal agenda

2234
01:22:48,470 --> 01:22:45,760
is a combination presentation by bill

2235
01:22:50,310 --> 01:22:48,480
botkey from southwest research and and

2236
01:22:52,390 --> 01:22:50,320
robert jedecki

2237
01:22:53,590 --> 01:22:52,400
from university of hawaii

2238
01:22:55,990 --> 01:22:53,600
um

2239
01:22:58,550 --> 01:22:56,000
dr botkey is director of the center for

2240
01:23:00,790 --> 01:22:58,560
lunar origin and evolution of nasa's

2241
01:23:02,229 --> 01:23:00,800
lunar science institute and director of

2242
01:23:04,310 --> 01:23:02,239
the department of space studies at

2243
01:23:06,709 --> 01:23:04,320
southwest research institute in boulder

2244
01:23:09,430 --> 01:23:06,719
also a flood survivor

2245
01:23:11,189 --> 01:23:09,440
and professor uh robert jedikis of the

2246
01:23:13,750 --> 01:23:11,199
university of hawaii and the asteroid

2247
01:23:15,270 --> 01:23:13,760
terrestrial impact last alert system or

2248
01:23:16,870 --> 01:23:15,280
atlas

2249
01:23:18,790 --> 01:23:16,880
the population of asteroids that are

2250
01:23:21,189 --> 01:23:18,800
temporarily captured in orbit around

2251
01:23:22,629 --> 01:23:21,199
this earth what bill and robert call

2252
01:23:25,189 --> 01:23:22,639
many moons

2253
01:23:27,510 --> 01:23:25,199
are new and highly compelling targets

2254
01:23:29,189 --> 01:23:27,520
for human exploration because of their

2255
01:23:31,270 --> 01:23:29,199
proximity to earth and their low

2256
01:23:32,950 --> 01:23:31,280
geocentric velocities

2257
01:23:34,709 --> 01:23:32,960
they believe this population can help

2258
01:23:36,870 --> 01:23:34,719
nasa address perhaps

2259
01:23:38,950 --> 01:23:36,880
exploration's most problematic issue

2260
01:23:40,950 --> 01:23:38,960
that is identifying a near-earth

2261
01:23:42,629 --> 01:23:40,960
asteroid population that asteroids

2262
01:23:44,310 --> 01:23:42,639
astronauts and their tools can interact

2263
01:23:45,510 --> 01:23:44,320
with within cost and scheduling

2264
01:23:47,270 --> 01:23:45,520
constraints

2265
01:23:50,070 --> 01:23:47,280
and here they'll briefly discuss what

2266
01:23:52,149 --> 01:23:50,080
many moons are what their orbits sizes

2267
01:23:53,750 --> 01:23:52,159
and physical properties may be like what

2268
01:23:55,510 --> 01:23:53,760
can be done to find them and how human

2269
01:23:57,189 --> 01:23:55,520
and robotic spacecraft can potentially

2270
01:23:59,830 --> 01:23:57,199
interact with them and i will say they

2271
01:24:01,669 --> 01:23:59,840
both submitted separate rfi responses

2272
01:24:03,189 --> 01:24:01,679
but the topics were so complementary

2273
01:24:05,510 --> 01:24:03,199
we're having them present to and they

2274
01:24:06,550 --> 01:24:05,520
graciously agreed to present together so

2275
01:24:08,149 --> 01:24:06,560
go ahead

2276
01:24:09,590 --> 01:24:08,159
thank you very much oh well robert and i

2277
01:24:11,189 --> 01:24:09,600
work closely together so this is no

2278
01:24:12,070 --> 01:24:11,199
we're actually very happy to be talking

2279
01:24:13,750 --> 01:24:12,080
together

2280
01:24:15,510 --> 01:24:13,760
so this is very different from the other

2281
01:24:17,510 --> 01:24:15,520
talks i think you've seen this session

2282
01:24:19,189 --> 01:24:17,520
so far we've mostly talked about of the

2283
01:24:20,470 --> 01:24:19,199
arm mission we're going to propose a

2284
01:24:21,910 --> 01:24:20,480
different mission no one asked us they

2285
01:24:23,590 --> 01:24:21,920
should have asked us beforehand but we

2286
01:24:25,189 --> 01:24:23,600
think we have a

2287
01:24:27,830 --> 01:24:25,199
mission concept

2288
01:24:30,070 --> 01:24:27,840
for a human mission which we're calling

2289
01:24:31,510 --> 01:24:30,080
uh admission to a mini moon and what

2290
01:24:32,870 --> 01:24:31,520
we're excited about this is maybe one of

2291
01:24:35,430 --> 01:24:32,880
the most exciting ideas i think i've

2292
01:24:38,310 --> 01:24:35,440
seen in my career in a sense that this

2293
01:24:40,550 --> 01:24:38,320
has the promise to help achieve nasa's

2294
01:24:42,950 --> 01:24:40,560
human spaceflight goals but at lower

2295
01:24:44,390 --> 01:24:42,960
costs and reduce risk than the things

2296
01:24:45,990 --> 01:24:44,400
that are being presented today

2297
01:24:47,350 --> 01:24:46,000
so to give you a feeling for this i have

2298
01:24:48,790 --> 01:24:47,360
to describe many moods that means i have

2299
01:24:50,629 --> 01:24:48,800
to give you something of a background on

2300
01:24:52,709 --> 01:24:50,639
the near earth object population so

2301
01:24:54,470 --> 01:24:52,719
first of all what are minimums

2302
01:24:55,910 --> 01:24:54,480
well let's start with sort of a top view

2303
01:24:58,070 --> 01:24:55,920
of the solar system so what you're

2304
01:24:59,430 --> 01:24:58,080
looking at here in green are is the main

2305
01:25:01,110 --> 01:24:59,440
asteroid belt and then you can see the

2306
01:25:02,470 --> 01:25:01,120
orbits of the terrestrial planets and

2307
01:25:04,629 --> 01:25:02,480
jupiter out here

2308
01:25:06,470 --> 01:25:04,639
now the asteroid belt provides the

2309
01:25:08,070 --> 01:25:06,480
source for our nearest object population

2310
01:25:09,669 --> 01:25:08,080
through different dynamical processes in

2311
01:25:11,510 --> 01:25:09,679
the rest the near-earth objects are the

2312
01:25:13,590 --> 01:25:11,520
objects here in red these are bodies

2313
01:25:14,950 --> 01:25:13,600
across the earth's path or in some cases

2314
01:25:16,629 --> 01:25:14,960
come very close to the earth and they're

2315
01:25:18,709 --> 01:25:16,639
what we're talking about today

2316
01:25:20,550 --> 01:25:18,719
now the armed mission candidates are a

2317
01:25:22,629 --> 01:25:20,560
subset of that population they just

2318
01:25:24,470 --> 01:25:22,639
happen to be the objects they're on very

2319
01:25:26,390 --> 01:25:24,480
low eccentricity very low inclination

2320
01:25:28,229 --> 01:25:26,400
orbits so they're really much smaller

2321
01:25:29,430 --> 01:25:28,239
than this near earth object population

2322
01:25:31,430 --> 01:25:29,440
but what's interesting is while

2323
01:25:33,669 --> 01:25:31,440
everyone's focusing on these guys these

2324
01:25:35,350 --> 01:25:33,679
objects actually do some special things

2325
01:25:36,310 --> 01:25:35,360
if you look at them and you think about

2326
01:25:37,669 --> 01:25:36,320
something we're going to call the

2327
01:25:39,270 --> 01:25:37,679
lagrange points i'm not going to spend a

2328
01:25:41,189 --> 01:25:39,280
lot of time going in the dynamics of

2329
01:25:43,910 --> 01:25:41,199
lagrange points but essentially when you

2330
01:25:45,990 --> 01:25:43,920
have objects on earth like orbits

2331
01:25:47,750 --> 01:25:46,000
they tend to spend a lot of time in

2332
01:25:50,070 --> 01:25:47,760
special regions where the gravitational

2333
01:25:51,510 --> 01:25:50,080
forces of the sun and the earth are very

2334
01:25:52,870 --> 01:25:51,520
comparable to one another and so when

2335
01:25:54,790 --> 01:25:52,880
you combine with the orbital motion it

2336
01:25:57,030 --> 01:25:54,800
actually creates a pathway where things

2337
01:25:58,870 --> 01:25:57,040
can go in from orbiting the sun to

2338
01:26:01,510 --> 01:25:58,880
actually going into orbit around the

2339
01:26:02,709 --> 01:26:01,520
earth itself okay so this pathway is

2340
01:26:05,110 --> 01:26:02,719
very interesting for the following

2341
01:26:07,669 --> 01:26:05,120
reason and that some asteroids actually

2342
01:26:09,189 --> 01:26:07,679
enter into a lagrange point like l1 they

2343
01:26:10,550 --> 01:26:09,199
rattle around the earth moon system for

2344
01:26:13,030 --> 01:26:10,560
a time and then eventually they may

2345
01:26:15,110 --> 01:26:13,040
escape out l2 or so so these are

2346
01:26:16,950 --> 01:26:15,120
temporarily captured asteroids but the

2347
01:26:18,550 --> 01:26:16,960
ones that we make a full orbit around

2348
01:26:20,870 --> 01:26:18,560
the earth we call mini boots okay that's

2349
01:26:22,310 --> 01:26:20,880
our that's our formal name for it okay

2350
01:26:24,070 --> 01:26:22,320
but what's interesting here is that some

2351
01:26:26,149 --> 01:26:24,080
objects are very are only temporarily

2352
01:26:28,149 --> 01:26:26,159
kept over a short time scale but others

2353
01:26:30,470 --> 01:26:28,159
are more are captured over a much longer

2354
01:26:31,990 --> 01:26:30,480
time scale some cases up to years even

2355
01:26:33,910 --> 01:26:32,000
decades depending on how you look at it

2356
01:26:35,750 --> 01:26:33,920
or so so this makes them very

2357
01:26:37,430 --> 01:26:35,760
interesting targets for something we

2358
01:26:38,229 --> 01:26:37,440
might want to visit in the near future

2359
01:26:40,310 --> 01:26:38,239
okay

2360
01:26:41,910 --> 01:26:40,320
so if this just gives you a feeling for

2361
01:26:43,510 --> 01:26:41,920
me also for the people on webex it's the

2362
01:26:45,270 --> 01:26:43,520
feeling for some of the trajectories of

2363
01:26:46,790 --> 01:26:45,280
these objects some are very simple they

2364
01:26:49,430 --> 01:26:46,800
just make one sort of orbit around the

2365
01:26:50,709 --> 01:26:49,440
earth some may make multiple passes and

2366
01:26:52,229 --> 01:26:50,719
then all of a sudden you can get crazy

2367
01:26:53,510 --> 01:26:52,239
trajectories as these things interact

2368
01:26:54,950 --> 01:26:53,520
with the moon and they interact with

2369
01:26:55,910 --> 01:26:54,960
resonances with the earth and the rest

2370
01:26:57,750 --> 01:26:55,920
you know that's where i have a whole

2371
01:27:00,550 --> 01:26:57,760
rogues gallery of things basically the

2372
01:27:01,830 --> 01:27:00,560
entire sphere of out to about four lunar

2373
01:27:03,430 --> 01:27:01,840
distances can be filled with these

2374
01:27:04,790 --> 01:27:03,440
objects

2375
01:27:06,470 --> 01:27:04,800
so the question is how many of these

2376
01:27:08,470 --> 01:27:06,480
guys exist okay that might be some of

2377
01:27:10,149 --> 01:27:08,480
the questions you want to know to answer

2378
01:27:11,830 --> 01:27:10,159
that we had to do some dynamical studies

2379
01:27:13,750 --> 01:27:11,840
this is some work done by mikhail

2380
01:27:15,669 --> 01:27:13,760
granvik and robert jediki just over the

2381
01:27:17,750 --> 01:27:15,679
last sort of recent history what they

2382
01:27:19,669 --> 01:27:17,760
did is they looked at the orbits of

2383
01:27:21,510 --> 01:27:19,679
essentially the arm candidates and this

2384
01:27:23,110 --> 01:27:21,520
is of the plot in some major axis and

2385
01:27:24,950 --> 01:27:23,120
eccentricity and then numerical

2386
01:27:27,430 --> 01:27:24,960
calculations to see how many objects

2387
01:27:28,709 --> 01:27:27,440
would be captured over time and just

2388
01:27:29,830 --> 01:27:28,719
give you the bottom line here's a lot i

2389
01:27:31,590 --> 01:27:29,840
could say in this plot but i don't have

2390
01:27:33,430 --> 01:27:31,600
time it's basically on the order of ten

2391
01:27:35,430 --> 01:27:33,440
the minus four to ten minus fifth of the

2392
01:27:36,790 --> 01:27:35,440
population is captured at any given time

2393
01:27:39,910 --> 01:27:36,800
or for those like think of percentages

2394
01:27:41,189 --> 01:27:39,920
it's about 0.001 so it's not very large

2395
01:27:43,510 --> 01:27:41,199
so what does that mean in terms of the

2396
01:27:44,870 --> 01:27:43,520
entire population well let's go back to

2397
01:27:46,870 --> 01:27:44,880
let's think back to the plot i just

2398
01:27:48,310 --> 01:27:46,880
showed you in white i'm showing a plot

2399
01:27:50,149 --> 01:27:48,320
of diameter and kilometers versus

2400
01:27:51,910 --> 01:27:50,159
cumulative number and right here we have

2401
01:27:54,070 --> 01:27:51,920
what we think the main main belt

2402
01:27:55,430 --> 01:27:54,080
asteroid population is like and yellow

2403
01:27:56,950 --> 01:27:55,440
is our best estimate of the near earth

2404
01:27:58,950 --> 01:27:56,960
object population remember that's just a

2405
01:28:01,590 --> 01:27:58,960
sort of a in a sense it's a dynamically

2406
01:28:03,270 --> 01:28:01,600
escaped subset of the main belt from

2407
01:28:05,030 --> 01:28:03,280
there we have the population of arm

2408
01:28:06,870 --> 01:28:05,040
candidates that's just a subset of the

2409
01:28:08,229 --> 01:28:06,880
near earth object population so if we

2410
01:28:10,310 --> 01:28:08,239
take that best estimate we have for the

2411
01:28:12,310 --> 01:28:10,320
armed population and we multiply it by

2412
01:28:14,070 --> 01:28:12,320
about 10 to the minus fifth or so we end

2413
01:28:15,750 --> 01:28:14,080
up with a population of model minions

2414
01:28:17,430 --> 01:28:15,760
okay so these are objects there's not a

2415
01:28:19,030 --> 01:28:17,440
lot of these guys but they're in steady

2416
01:28:21,189 --> 01:28:19,040
state so at any given time there's

2417
01:28:23,110 --> 01:28:21,199
several meter-sized guys to visit in the

2418
01:28:24,629 --> 01:28:23,120
earth moon system so what does that mean

2419
01:28:25,910 --> 01:28:24,639
what's the bottom line on that so

2420
01:28:27,750 --> 01:28:25,920
essentially what we're talking about is

2421
01:28:30,390 --> 01:28:27,760
a few objects which are maybe on the

2422
01:28:31,990 --> 01:28:30,400
order of a washing machine or so okay we

2423
01:28:33,669 --> 01:28:32,000
maybe have a dozen objects or so which

2424
01:28:35,110 --> 01:28:33,679
are maybe about the size of a beach ball

2425
01:28:37,110 --> 01:28:35,120
and then every once in a while we have a

2426
01:28:39,189 --> 01:28:37,120
larger object okay so they're not very

2427
01:28:41,669 --> 01:28:39,199
big but there's always something to go

2428
01:28:42,709 --> 01:28:41,679
visit okay and ultimately we're pretty

2429
01:28:43,830 --> 01:28:42,719
we're reasonably happy with these

2430
01:28:45,350 --> 01:28:43,840
numbers but we like to do more

2431
01:28:47,110 --> 01:28:45,360
observational work and robert's going to

2432
01:28:49,189 --> 01:28:47,120
talk about that and a better theoretical

2433
01:28:50,629 --> 01:28:49,199
study to understand this but even so

2434
01:28:52,149 --> 01:28:50,639
these objects are very interesting from

2435
01:28:54,229 --> 01:28:52,159
a science perspective

2436
01:28:55,910 --> 01:28:54,239
say okay so how long do they last

2437
01:28:57,990 --> 01:28:55,920
typically our numerical simulations

2438
01:28:59,189 --> 01:28:58,000
suggest they last on the order of about

2439
01:29:01,430 --> 01:28:59,199
three orbits around the earth moon

2440
01:29:02,390 --> 01:29:01,440
system or about 10 months and you can

2441
01:29:03,830 --> 01:29:02,400
see here there's something of a

2442
01:29:05,669 --> 01:29:03,840
long-lived tail where they can last much

2443
01:29:06,950 --> 01:29:05,679
longer or so so that's pretty short to

2444
01:29:08,629 --> 01:29:06,960
think about a human mission to these

2445
01:29:10,149 --> 01:29:08,639
things but keep in mind if you had a

2446
01:29:12,229 --> 01:29:10,159
robotic precursor go out to these

2447
01:29:13,910 --> 01:29:12,239
objects you could very easily stabilize

2448
01:29:15,350 --> 01:29:13,920
them it doesn't take much of a velocity

2449
01:29:17,189 --> 01:29:15,360
kick to actually put them into an orbit

2450
01:29:18,310 --> 01:29:17,199
which will last a hundred years or so so

2451
01:29:19,830 --> 01:29:18,320
in a sense you can think about them

2452
01:29:21,669 --> 01:29:19,840
almost as a mini arm being able to do

2453
01:29:23,510 --> 01:29:21,679
lots of interesting things here

2454
01:29:25,110 --> 01:29:23,520
okay so i want to close my portion of

2455
01:29:26,790 --> 01:29:25,120
talk just by saying why these things are

2456
01:29:28,310 --> 01:29:26,800
scientifically interesting why we might

2457
01:29:29,590 --> 01:29:28,320
want to go see these guys

2458
01:29:31,189 --> 01:29:29,600
so the first of all to understand is

2459
01:29:32,790 --> 01:29:31,199
that these objects are essentially the

2460
01:29:34,550 --> 01:29:32,800
precursors or the meteoroids that are

2461
01:29:36,070 --> 01:29:34,560
delivering meteorites to the earth and

2462
01:29:37,430 --> 01:29:36,080
so you have a sense you get you can get

2463
01:29:38,870 --> 01:29:37,440
samples that are outside the atmosphere

2464
01:29:40,390 --> 01:29:38,880
before any contamination or anything

2465
01:29:41,669 --> 01:29:40,400
else has taken place and they can

2466
01:29:43,350 --> 01:29:41,679
actually tell us about the original

2467
01:29:45,510 --> 01:29:43,360
building blocks which made the planets

2468
01:29:47,189 --> 01:29:45,520
and they also provide information on

2469
01:29:48,629 --> 01:29:47,199
possibly how life got going depending if

2470
01:29:50,470 --> 01:29:48,639
you get organics and volatiles and all

2471
01:29:52,149 --> 01:29:50,480
the rest this is a major nasa goal

2472
01:29:53,910 --> 01:29:52,159
that's demonstrated by the osiris-rex

2473
01:29:55,590 --> 01:29:53,920
mission that's out there there's also

2474
01:29:57,510 --> 01:29:55,600
the fact that these samples can be very

2475
01:29:59,350 --> 01:29:57,520
large and if you like it you can bring

2476
01:30:01,189 --> 01:29:59,360
the entire thing home depending on how

2477
01:30:02,390 --> 01:30:01,199
you want to do it and that's a key goal

2478
01:30:03,830 --> 01:30:02,400
regarding the study of asteroid

2479
01:30:04,709 --> 01:30:03,840
resources and we've already had talks on

2480
01:30:05,830 --> 01:30:04,719
that

2481
01:30:07,030 --> 01:30:05,840
finally there's something else to keep

2482
01:30:09,270 --> 01:30:07,040
in mind while everyone talks about

2483
01:30:11,110 --> 01:30:09,280
asteroids being rubble piles versus uh

2484
01:30:12,950 --> 01:30:11,120
solid objects there's one more issue to

2485
01:30:14,550 --> 01:30:12,960
keep in mind all of the asteroids we're

2486
01:30:16,229 --> 01:30:14,560
dealing with are small enough that

2487
01:30:17,590 --> 01:30:16,239
essentially they in some cases they may

2488
01:30:19,750 --> 01:30:17,600
literally be held together not by

2489
01:30:21,430 --> 01:30:19,760
necessarily gravity by electrostatic

2490
01:30:22,870 --> 01:30:21,440
cohesive forces this is becoming more

2491
01:30:24,390 --> 01:30:22,880
and more recognized in the small body

2492
01:30:26,550 --> 01:30:24,400
community so some of these objects may

2493
01:30:28,629 --> 01:30:26,560
literally be sand castles and if that's

2494
01:30:30,390 --> 01:30:28,639
true we really would be very important

2495
01:30:31,669 --> 01:30:30,400
to understand that nature before we send

2496
01:30:33,510 --> 01:30:31,679
humans out there to interact with them

2497
01:30:35,910 --> 01:30:33,520
in some fashion and so a mission to a

2498
01:30:36,950 --> 01:30:35,920
mini moon can buy down risk by

2499
01:30:38,550 --> 01:30:36,960
understanding these objects their

2500
01:30:40,629 --> 01:30:38,560
natural laboratories to understand these

2501
01:30:41,669 --> 01:30:40,639
really poorly understood processes and

2502
01:30:42,950 --> 01:30:41,679
so with that i'm going to hand it over

2503
01:30:54,390 --> 01:30:42,960
to robert and robert's going to tell you

2504
01:30:57,590 --> 01:30:56,070
thank you bill so i'm sure you're all

2505
01:30:59,189 --> 01:30:57,600
wondering uh just a couple theorists

2506
01:31:01,430 --> 01:30:59,199
standing up here talking about this

2507
01:31:02,870 --> 01:31:01,440
vapor these vapor moons up there going

2508
01:31:04,790 --> 01:31:02,880
around the earth can we actually find

2509
01:31:07,030 --> 01:31:04,800
them are they actually there

2510
01:31:09,110 --> 01:31:07,040
and uh the whole idea started up about

2511
01:31:11,189 --> 01:31:09,120
20 years ago when i was working in at

2512
01:31:12,629 --> 01:31:11,199
kid peak arizona i was working with a

2513
01:31:14,550 --> 01:31:12,639
project called the space watch project

2514
01:31:16,470 --> 01:31:14,560
looking for asteroids and every once in

2515
01:31:17,910 --> 01:31:16,480
a while we'd find a geocentric object

2516
01:31:20,229 --> 01:31:17,920
and it would have this very elliptical

2517
01:31:22,070 --> 01:31:20,239
high inclination high semi-major axis

2518
01:31:23,750 --> 01:31:22,080
orbit around the earth and i would

2519
01:31:24,790 --> 01:31:23,760
report it to the minor planet center and

2520
01:31:25,669 --> 01:31:24,800
they would write back to me saying oh

2521
01:31:27,430 --> 01:31:25,679
rob don't worry about it it's a

2522
01:31:28,870 --> 01:31:27,440
geocentric object i said what if it's a

2523
01:31:30,550 --> 01:31:28,880
natural geocentric object it's a very

2524
01:31:31,990 --> 01:31:30,560
strange orbit they said ah there are no

2525
01:31:33,189 --> 01:31:32,000
natural geocentric objects other than

2526
01:31:34,709 --> 01:31:33,199
the moon

2527
01:31:36,550 --> 01:31:34,719
they said they're all artificial and i

2528
01:31:37,430 --> 01:31:36,560
thought that was very odd so 20 years go

2529
01:31:39,510 --> 01:31:37,440
by

2530
01:31:40,950 --> 01:31:39,520
and a couple years ago i found this

2531
01:31:42,070 --> 01:31:40,960
postdoc who was willing to work with me

2532
01:31:43,270 --> 01:31:42,080
on this project and we did the

2533
01:31:44,950 --> 01:31:43,280
simulations and actually figured out

2534
01:31:46,870 --> 01:31:44,960
that yeah a very small fraction of the

2535
01:31:48,070 --> 01:31:46,880
population can go into orbit around the

2536
01:31:50,390 --> 01:31:48,080
earth

2537
01:31:51,910 --> 01:31:50,400
and they uh they can be captured by the

2538
01:31:53,750 --> 01:31:51,920
earth immune system unfortunately we

2539
01:31:56,149 --> 01:31:53,760
published our paper a few years after

2540
01:31:58,870 --> 01:31:56,159
the discovery of the first mini moon

2541
01:32:00,390 --> 01:31:58,880
2006 rh120 if only we had done this 10

2542
01:32:02,229 --> 01:32:00,400
years earlier we would have predicted

2543
01:32:03,830 --> 01:32:02,239
this object and the great thing about

2544
01:32:05,590 --> 01:32:03,840
this object is it's really a poster

2545
01:32:06,550 --> 01:32:05,600
child for many moons

2546
01:32:12,629 --> 01:32:06,560
it's

2547
01:32:15,189 --> 01:32:12,639
geocentric orbit we're all exactly what

2548
01:32:16,470 --> 01:32:15,199
we predicted on our model the duration

2549
01:32:18,629 --> 01:32:16,480
of time that it spent in orbit around

2550
01:32:20,550 --> 01:32:18,639
the earth was the average of what we

2551
01:32:22,070 --> 01:32:20,560
predicted minimum should spend around

2552
01:32:23,590 --> 01:32:22,080
the earth

2553
01:32:25,510 --> 01:32:23,600
basically everything it did was was

2554
01:32:27,030 --> 01:32:25,520
right even its size at 3 meters which is

2555
01:32:27,750 --> 01:32:27,040
about the you know height of a typical

2556
01:32:30,390 --> 01:32:27,760
uh

2557
01:32:32,470 --> 01:32:30,400
high diving board at a city pool right

2558
01:32:33,750 --> 01:32:32,480
even its size is about the right order

2559
01:32:35,830 --> 01:32:33,760
of magnitude that we expect from our

2560
01:32:37,990 --> 01:32:35,840
modeling one object like this goes into

2561
01:32:39,510 --> 01:32:38,000
orbit around the earth every 10 years

2562
01:32:41,350 --> 01:32:39,520
the surveys have been operating for 10

2563
01:32:43,270 --> 01:32:41,360
or 20 years at different uh levels of

2564
01:32:44,550 --> 01:32:43,280
efficiency so it's about the right order

2565
01:32:46,229 --> 01:32:44,560
magnitude for us to be finding these

2566
01:32:47,270 --> 01:32:46,239
objects so it was the poster child for

2567
01:32:49,110 --> 01:32:47,280
minimum

2568
01:32:51,669 --> 01:32:49,120
it was found at the time because it was

2569
01:32:53,510 --> 01:32:51,679
bright and very slow moving

2570
01:32:55,430 --> 01:32:53,520
and so it was it was relatively easy to

2571
01:32:56,950 --> 01:32:55,440
find by the catalina sky survey but this

2572
01:32:58,229 --> 01:32:56,960
is just we think this is just the tip of

2573
01:32:59,590 --> 01:32:58,239
the whole meaning and iceberg we think

2574
01:33:03,030 --> 01:32:59,600
there are many more out there and we

2575
01:33:07,110 --> 01:33:04,950
we've done a lot of simulations using

2576
01:33:08,470 --> 01:33:07,120
different assets on the ground if you're

2577
01:33:10,550 --> 01:33:08,480
on the ground you want to probably be

2578
01:33:13,030 --> 01:33:10,560
using visible light you would really

2579
01:33:15,030 --> 01:33:13,040
like a survey that's got a wide field

2580
01:33:17,030 --> 01:33:15,040
telescope that can get you extremely

2581
01:33:19,030 --> 01:33:17,040
faint limiting magnitudes that can take

2582
01:33:20,950 --> 01:33:19,040
very short exposures so something like

2583
01:33:22,229 --> 01:33:20,960
the large synoptic survey telescope that

2584
01:33:23,669 --> 01:33:22,239
should be operational about five or ten

2585
01:33:25,510 --> 01:33:23,679
years would be a really premier

2586
01:33:27,430 --> 01:33:25,520
instrument for finding these mini moons

2587
01:33:29,030 --> 01:33:27,440
but that's still you know a decade or so

2588
01:33:30,950 --> 01:33:29,040
in the future right now there is an

2589
01:33:32,629 --> 01:33:30,960
asset available the subaru telescope

2590
01:33:35,110 --> 01:33:32,639
eight meter telescope on the summit of

2591
01:33:37,750 --> 01:33:35,120
mauna kea hawaii and they're just

2592
01:33:38,709 --> 01:33:37,760
installing the hyper super prime cam

2593
01:33:40,790 --> 01:33:38,719
camera

2594
01:33:43,750 --> 01:33:40,800
and uh this is a phenomenal uh

2595
01:33:45,030 --> 01:33:43,760
instrument and we think that if we had

2596
01:33:47,110 --> 01:33:45,040
time on this telescope we would be able

2597
01:33:49,270 --> 01:33:47,120
to find mini moons in a regular way uh

2598
01:33:50,790 --> 01:33:49,280
we think that there's a 40 probability

2599
01:33:52,790 --> 01:33:50,800
of finding a mini moon on any night we

2600
01:33:54,550 --> 01:33:52,800
go observing with that telescope

2601
01:33:56,629 --> 01:33:54,560
which means that there's about a 90

2602
01:33:58,629 --> 01:33:56,639
percent chance of finding a mini moon if

2603
01:34:01,830 --> 01:33:58,639
we had five ninths in the telescope the

2604
01:34:03,750 --> 01:34:01,840
one missing key is that i would require

2605
01:34:04,870 --> 01:34:03,760
a wideband filter to optimize that's

2606
01:34:06,310 --> 01:34:04,880
optimized for the detection these

2607
01:34:08,229 --> 01:34:06,320
minimums right now they use relatively

2608
01:34:10,870 --> 01:34:08,239
narrow band filters for doing astronomy

2609
01:34:12,629 --> 01:34:10,880
and astrophysics and for doing asteroids

2610
01:34:14,149 --> 01:34:12,639
science you want or discovery you want

2611
01:34:16,149 --> 01:34:14,159
it very wide you want to basically learn

2612
01:34:17,590 --> 01:34:16,159
as much light as you possibly can but if

2613
01:34:19,590 --> 01:34:17,600
you really want to find a lot of minions

2614
01:34:21,669 --> 01:34:19,600
uh you know dozens at a time you want to

2615
01:34:23,510 --> 01:34:21,679
go to space so we've done simulations

2616
01:34:24,790 --> 01:34:23,520
from space and we think that if you're

2617
01:34:27,030 --> 01:34:24,800
going to go to space the best place to

2618
01:34:28,870 --> 01:34:27,040
be would be at l1 l1 is a location about

2619
01:34:30,470 --> 01:34:28,880
four lunar distances away from the earth

2620
01:34:32,790 --> 01:34:30,480
it's in the direction of sun so you're

2621
01:34:34,390 --> 01:34:32,800
looking sort of back towards the earth

2622
01:34:35,590 --> 01:34:34,400
and you're going to see the mini means

2623
01:34:38,310 --> 01:34:35,600
sort of distributed around the earth as

2624
01:34:41,030 --> 01:34:38,320
shown in this figure here

2625
01:34:44,070 --> 01:34:41,040
if you put a 1 meter diameter mirror

2626
01:34:45,830 --> 01:34:44,080
with an infrared camera at l1 we think

2627
01:34:48,149 --> 01:34:45,840
that there will be 30 detectable mini

2628
01:34:49,910 --> 01:34:48,159
moons on the sky plane at any time so

2629
01:34:51,510 --> 01:34:49,920
that you'd have dozens of mini moons

2630
01:34:52,550 --> 01:34:51,520
that were available you could you're not

2631
01:34:54,390 --> 01:34:52,560
they're not you know they're going to

2632
01:34:56,149 --> 01:34:54,400
come in and out of visibility so that

2633
01:34:57,510 --> 01:34:56,159
over the course of a month or six months

2634
01:34:59,109 --> 01:34:57,520
or a year you're going to see many many

2635
01:35:01,030 --> 01:34:59,119
dozens of mini moons

2636
01:35:02,790 --> 01:35:01,040
and that's extremely interesting to us

2637
01:35:04,709 --> 01:35:02,800
it's also interesting to us because 1 in

2638
01:35:06,390 --> 01:35:04,719
100 mini moons actually become large

2639
01:35:07,750 --> 01:35:06,400
bolide meteors right so that you can

2640
01:35:09,109 --> 01:35:07,760
find these things before they strike the

2641
01:35:10,629 --> 01:35:09,119
earth

2642
01:35:12,790 --> 01:35:10,639
and then you get the side benefit of if

2643
01:35:15,350 --> 01:35:12,800
you have a spacecraft like this at l1

2644
01:35:17,189 --> 01:35:15,360
looking back at the earth it's really a

2645
01:35:18,870 --> 01:35:17,199
early asteroid impact warning system as

2646
01:35:20,149 --> 01:35:18,880
well just like you've got satellites up

2647
01:35:22,390 --> 01:35:20,159
on orbit around the earth looking for

2648
01:35:24,070 --> 01:35:22,400
hurricanes and tornadoes uh this would

2649
01:35:25,669 --> 01:35:24,080
be an early impact warning system for

2650
01:35:29,910 --> 01:35:25,679
asteroids so not only finding many moons

2651
01:35:32,790 --> 01:35:31,590
so if we find them can you actually

2652
01:35:34,310 --> 01:35:32,800
visit them

2653
01:35:36,229 --> 01:35:34,320
those orbits that we showed look kind of

2654
01:35:37,590 --> 01:35:36,239
like crazy straws right and so i worked

2655
01:35:39,510 --> 01:35:37,600
with a mathematician at the university

2656
01:35:41,189 --> 01:35:39,520
of hawaii who was quite excited about

2657
01:35:42,550 --> 01:35:41,199
doing calculations to see whether or not

2658
01:35:44,870 --> 01:35:42,560
you could actually devise orbits to

2659
01:35:46,950 --> 01:35:44,880
these crazy straw uh objects

2660
01:35:49,270 --> 01:35:46,960
and uh what we found actually

2661
01:35:50,149 --> 01:35:49,280
is that if you or what we first of all

2662
01:35:52,149 --> 01:35:50,159
started

2663
01:35:53,430 --> 01:35:52,159
simulating was it let's we thought well

2664
01:35:54,950 --> 01:35:53,440
these things are only over for 10 months

2665
01:35:56,149 --> 01:35:54,960
you can't possibly get emissions you

2666
01:35:57,669 --> 01:35:56,159
know up and running and send it out in

2667
01:35:59,750 --> 01:35:57,679
10 months so what we thought instead is

2668
01:36:01,030 --> 01:35:59,760
let's put a spacecraft in geosynchronous

2669
01:36:02,790 --> 01:36:01,040
orbit and just let it stay there and

2670
01:36:04,390 --> 01:36:02,800
just store it there in hibernation until

2671
01:36:05,990 --> 01:36:04,400
we find the mini moon once we find the

2672
01:36:07,990 --> 01:36:06,000
minimum so we got the spacecraft here in

2673
01:36:09,830 --> 01:36:08,000
geocentric orbit and once we find a mini

2674
01:36:10,870 --> 01:36:09,840
moon as it's coming into the earth moon

2675
01:36:12,229 --> 01:36:10,880
system

2676
01:36:14,229 --> 01:36:12,239
we sort of triggered the spacecraft and

2677
01:36:15,510 --> 01:36:14,239
we say okay now now we have the orbit

2678
01:36:17,189 --> 01:36:15,520
for this object we've bounced radar off

2679
01:36:19,109 --> 01:36:17,199
it we've got a great orbit we can

2680
01:36:21,109 --> 01:36:19,119
deorbit it from geosync and make it

2681
01:36:22,870 --> 01:36:21,119
rendezvous with the

2682
01:36:25,030 --> 01:36:22,880
asteroid we can match its speed and

2683
01:36:26,870 --> 01:36:25,040
velocity we found out that every single

2684
01:36:28,229 --> 01:36:26,880
one of the 17 000 mini moons that we

2685
01:36:29,510 --> 01:36:28,239
created in our simulations we could

2686
01:36:30,629 --> 01:36:29,520
actually get to with this kind of a

2687
01:36:34,870 --> 01:36:30,639
scenario

2688
01:36:36,229 --> 01:36:34,880
looking at storing the spacecraft at l1

2689
01:36:38,070 --> 01:36:36,239
or l2 to see whether or not there's any

2690
01:36:40,070 --> 01:36:38,080
difference we our preliminary work

2691
01:36:41,669 --> 01:36:40,080
suggests that it's possible to get to

2692
01:36:44,870 --> 01:36:41,679
the mini moons all the mini moons even

2693
01:36:46,310 --> 01:36:44,880
if you're store starting at l1 or l2

2694
01:36:47,910 --> 01:36:46,320
for human machine landing you'd probably

2695
01:36:49,189 --> 01:36:47,920
want a mini moon that was on a longer

2696
01:36:50,550 --> 01:36:49,199
term orbit you wouldn't want something

2697
01:36:51,430 --> 01:36:50,560
that's just there for 10 months you'd

2698
01:36:54,149 --> 01:36:51,440
probably want something that was going

2699
01:36:55,669 --> 01:36:54,159
to be there for years so you could take

2700
01:36:57,109 --> 01:36:55,679
you could you might get lucky you might

2701
01:36:58,950 --> 01:36:57,119
find one of these at these mini moons

2702
01:37:00,870 --> 01:36:58,960
that are in a long-term stable orbit or

2703
01:37:02,310 --> 01:37:00,880
you could do as bill suggested that you

2704
01:37:04,950 --> 01:37:02,320
could launch a precursor mission to go

2705
01:37:07,189 --> 01:37:04,960
and stabilize a minimum orbit to make it

2706
01:37:09,430 --> 01:37:07,199
stable for centuries or so

2707
01:37:12,149 --> 01:37:09,440
uh when at that kind of level you should

2708
01:37:13,510 --> 01:37:12,159
be able to have an orion a a mission

2709
01:37:15,990 --> 01:37:13,520
that you could do get to with orion

2710
01:37:18,390 --> 01:37:16,000
spacecraft um sort of in a two to three

2711
01:37:19,669 --> 01:37:18,400
week time frame so you know these mini

2712
01:37:21,030 --> 01:37:19,679
moons are at the sort of the distance of

2713
01:37:22,790 --> 01:37:21,040
the moon on average right so it's about

2714
01:37:24,229 --> 01:37:22,800
the same amount of time as it takes to

2715
01:37:25,910 --> 01:37:24,239
get to the moon and come back and have a

2716
01:37:27,270 --> 01:37:25,920
mission to the moon so you know we're

2717
01:37:29,510 --> 01:37:27,280
talking about very reasonable time

2718
01:37:30,870 --> 01:37:29,520
frames for manned missions to these mini

2719
01:37:34,310 --> 01:37:30,880
moons

2720
01:37:35,910 --> 01:37:34,320
of advantages they offer a great way to

2721
01:37:37,510 --> 01:37:35,920
test arm technologies i mean i've been

2722
01:37:39,109 --> 01:37:37,520
really impressed by all the great ideas

2723
01:37:40,870 --> 01:37:39,119
you guys have been talking about

2724
01:37:43,910 --> 01:37:40,880
and i think that all of them can be

2725
01:37:45,910 --> 01:37:43,920
applied easy more easily to the minimum

2726
01:37:47,109 --> 01:37:45,920
idea these things are right in our

2727
01:37:48,550 --> 01:37:47,119
backyard they're going around the earth

2728
01:37:50,070 --> 01:37:48,560
they're extremely low delta-v targets

2729
01:37:51,590 --> 01:37:50,080
they're smaller asteroids they're easier

2730
01:37:54,550 --> 01:37:51,600
to capture easier to bring back easier

2731
01:37:58,790 --> 01:37:56,229
and in scientifically it'd be extremely

2732
01:38:00,629 --> 01:37:58,800
interesting to bring back an entire

2733
01:38:02,070 --> 01:38:00,639
intact one-half meter or one meter

2734
01:38:03,830 --> 01:38:02,080
diameter asteroid bring it back to the

2735
01:38:05,270 --> 01:38:03,840
earth and uh the interesting thing is

2736
01:38:07,189 --> 01:38:05,280
the mini moons are detectable with our

2737
01:38:08,950 --> 01:38:07,199
existing assets we just need to apply

2738
01:38:10,790 --> 01:38:08,960
something like subaru telescope to

2739
01:38:12,229 --> 01:38:10,800
finding these objects or we could be a

2740
01:38:14,229 --> 01:38:12,239
little more ambitious develop an

2741
01:38:16,070 --> 01:38:14,239
asteroid impact warning system put it l1

2742
01:38:17,750 --> 01:38:16,080
that will also find the minimums for us

2743
01:38:19,910 --> 01:38:17,760
so at the very least we think many moons

2744
01:38:21,510 --> 01:38:19,920
warn an in-depth study to determine

2745
01:38:24,310 --> 01:38:21,520
whether or not they're useful for the

2746
01:38:31,350 --> 01:38:24,320
spacecraft industry

2747
01:38:36,310 --> 01:38:34,550
any questions for bill and robert

2748
01:38:39,189 --> 01:38:36,320
yeah you said of the

2749
01:38:41,669 --> 01:38:39,199
17 000 in your simulation that all of

2750
01:38:43,669 --> 01:38:41,679
them you could get to them

2751
01:38:48,310 --> 01:38:43,679
when leaving from geo what was your

2752
01:38:52,870 --> 01:38:50,390
it was a couple for a few kilometers per

2753
01:38:55,510 --> 01:38:52,880
second a few columns okay thanks

2754
01:38:56,470 --> 01:38:55,520
so geo is the wrong place to wait

2755
01:38:57,510 --> 01:38:56,480
yeah

2756
01:39:00,390 --> 01:38:57,520
um

2757
01:39:02,870 --> 01:39:00,400
we we know that now

2758
01:39:04,550 --> 01:39:02,880
you you might repeat that

2759
01:39:05,990 --> 01:39:04,560
yeah yeah we know that now we we've

2760
01:39:07,990 --> 01:39:06,000
since learned we're simulating what

2761
01:39:09,910 --> 01:39:08,000
would happen if uh wait from when we're

2762
01:39:11,669 --> 01:39:09,920
waiting at l1 or lt

2763
01:39:15,030 --> 01:39:11,679
and how much delta v does it take to

2764
01:39:17,750 --> 01:39:15,040
stabilize the the asteroid itself

2765
01:39:22,070 --> 01:39:17,760
do you know that answer that um

2766
01:39:26,070 --> 01:39:24,149
okay so the question was how much how

2767
01:39:27,910 --> 01:39:26,080
much delta v does it take to stabilize

2768
01:39:29,430 --> 01:39:27,920
these uh mini moons uh the question is

2769
01:39:30,470 --> 01:39:29,440
we don't know because we haven't had we

2770
01:39:32,390 --> 01:39:30,480
haven't gotten the funding yet to do

2771
01:39:34,629 --> 01:39:32,400
that study if they fund us we'll let you

2772
01:39:36,149 --> 01:39:34,639
know but but typically what you can

2773
01:39:37,590 --> 01:39:36,159
think about though is you think about

2774
01:39:38,790 --> 01:39:37,600
the difference between you know the many

2775
01:39:40,709 --> 01:39:38,800
more orbits we showed and then the

2776
01:39:42,149 --> 01:39:40,719
long-lived tail it doesn't take very

2777
01:39:43,750 --> 01:39:42,159
much velocity to put them onto a

2778
01:39:45,030 --> 01:39:43,760
long-term stable orbit so i would think

2779
01:39:47,109 --> 01:39:45,040
the velocity requirements are going to

2780
01:39:48,950 --> 01:39:47,119
be very very small so you could think

2781
01:39:50,629 --> 01:39:48,960
about even doing this in a

2782
01:39:52,229 --> 01:39:50,639
you know rather than putting some

2783
01:39:53,910 --> 01:39:52,239
mechanism on it you might even be able

2784
01:39:55,109 --> 01:39:53,920
to do this by a gravity tractor in some

2785
01:39:56,470 --> 01:39:55,119
sense in some cases we're talking about

2786
01:39:57,750 --> 01:39:56,480
small enough objects that that's very

2787
01:40:01,990 --> 01:39:57,760
viable to do so there's all sorts of

2788
01:40:05,189 --> 01:40:03,750
how many of these objects have i know

2789
01:40:06,830 --> 01:40:05,199
we're not haven't been looking for them

2790
01:40:10,229 --> 01:40:06,840
very much but how many have been

2791
01:40:13,590 --> 01:40:10,239
cataloged one in just one just just one

2792
01:40:15,189 --> 01:40:13,600
one object and uh and and and that even

2793
01:40:17,030 --> 01:40:15,199
that is very consistent with our models

2794
01:40:18,550 --> 01:40:17,040
with our simulation so we've taken our

2795
01:40:20,070 --> 01:40:18,560
mini moon model run it through

2796
01:40:21,830 --> 01:40:20,080
simulations of existing surveys to

2797
01:40:23,669 --> 01:40:21,840
predict how many would be found and the

2798
01:40:25,510 --> 01:40:23,679
answer is basically the one object that

2799
01:40:27,030 --> 01:40:25,520
was found because in order to find these

2800
01:40:29,189 --> 01:40:27,040
things you need to design a specific

2801
01:40:30,950 --> 01:40:29,199
strategy the asteroid surveys that are

2802
01:40:32,310 --> 01:40:30,960
in operation right now are not really

2803
01:40:34,149 --> 01:40:32,320
looking for these things in fact you

2804
01:40:36,310 --> 01:40:34,159
know we think probably a project like

2805
01:40:38,229 --> 01:40:36,320
pan stars that i used to work on has

2806
01:40:39,590 --> 01:40:38,239
probably detected these things but just

2807
01:40:41,109 --> 01:40:39,600
detecting something is different than

2808
01:40:42,149 --> 01:40:41,119
discovering and realizing it's a mini

2809
01:40:43,750 --> 01:40:42,159
moon because many moons have got

2810
01:40:44,950 --> 01:40:43,760
different sky motions and different

2811
01:40:46,950 --> 01:40:44,960
properties and they're different they're

2812
01:40:51,590 --> 01:40:46,960
more difficult to link than heliocentric

2813
01:40:55,990 --> 01:40:53,270
what about your what about your data

2814
01:40:57,189 --> 01:40:56,000
from 20 years ago

2815
01:40:58,870 --> 01:40:57,199
yeah i thought about going back and

2816
01:41:01,750 --> 01:40:58,880
looking that up

2817
01:41:03,669 --> 01:41:01,760
the thing is that with those objects we

2818
01:41:05,430 --> 01:41:03,679
we only had what would happen typically

2819
01:41:06,950 --> 01:41:05,440
is i would we would track them for a few

2820
01:41:08,310 --> 01:41:06,960
hours on one night

2821
01:41:09,590 --> 01:41:08,320
and then we'd send them into the minor

2822
01:41:11,270 --> 01:41:09,600
planet center they'd say don't worry

2823
01:41:12,550 --> 01:41:11,280
about it and then we'd stop it we

2824
01:41:19,030 --> 01:41:12,560
wouldn't bother looking at for the next

2825
01:41:23,189 --> 01:41:20,470
there was perhaps another aspect to

2826
01:41:25,830 --> 01:41:23,199
consider is that uh uh near earth object

2827
01:41:28,310 --> 01:41:25,840
surveys are strongly discouraged from

2828
01:41:30,709 --> 01:41:28,320
tracking geocentric uh objects for

2829
01:41:33,750 --> 01:41:30,719
reasons that have to do with

2830
01:41:36,870 --> 01:41:33,760
uh space space surveillance issues

2831
01:41:38,470 --> 01:41:36,880
so so uh only recently has become

2832
01:41:39,830 --> 01:41:38,480
people have become aware that maybe they

2833
01:41:42,070 --> 01:41:39,840
should

2834
01:41:44,550 --> 01:41:42,080
consider other possibilities

2835
01:41:47,590 --> 01:41:44,560
there's also another possible detection

2836
01:41:48,709 --> 01:41:47,600
of mini moons at roughly the same time

2837
01:41:50,629 --> 01:41:48,719
that we were finding these things at

2838
01:41:53,510 --> 01:41:50,639
spacewatch 20 years ago the air force

2839
01:41:54,629 --> 01:41:53,520
did a radar survey looking for objects

2840
01:41:56,310 --> 01:41:54,639
and they found

2841
01:41:58,709 --> 01:41:56,320
it's recently been declassified and they

2842
01:42:00,709 --> 01:41:58,719
found three objects that were on

2843
01:42:02,310 --> 01:42:00,719
extremely unusual orbits that they that

2844
01:42:04,950 --> 01:42:02,320
they they did not think were consistent

2845
01:42:06,470 --> 01:42:04,960
with any artificial known uh satellites

2846
01:42:07,750 --> 01:42:06,480
or even debris from any satellites

2847
01:42:09,830 --> 01:42:07,760
because the orbits were so strange

2848
01:42:12,149 --> 01:42:09,840
however those orbits are extremely like

2849
01:42:13,830 --> 01:42:12,159
mini moon orbits and at the time they

2850
01:42:15,270 --> 01:42:13,840
speculated whether or not they could be

2851
01:42:17,030 --> 01:42:15,280
natural objects but nothing was done

2852
01:42:19,189 --> 01:42:17,040
about it

2853
01:42:24,310 --> 01:42:19,199
okay anything else

2854
01:42:30,709 --> 01:42:25,350
all right

2855
01:42:32,310 --> 01:42:30,719
portion of our our program on time it's

2856
01:42:34,870 --> 01:42:32,320
4 15.

2857
01:42:35,830 --> 01:42:34,880
what we have left

2858
01:42:37,910 --> 01:42:35,840
is

2859
01:42:39,750 --> 01:42:37,920
first of all there was one presenter

2860
01:42:42,629 --> 01:42:39,760
joel cersel

2861
01:42:43,990 --> 01:42:42,639
who had a presentation another session

2862
01:42:46,149 --> 01:42:44,000
that he really feels like belongs here

2863
01:42:47,990 --> 01:42:46,159
so i want to give him five minutes or so

2864
01:42:50,070 --> 01:42:48,000
to be able to give a brief

2865
01:42:52,470 --> 01:42:50,080
uh talk of that and romero would like to

2866
01:42:54,550 --> 01:42:52,480
help ask your help for that um we also

2867
01:42:55,830 --> 01:42:54,560
need to go back and and address some of

2868
01:42:58,390 --> 01:42:55,840
the questions and several of the first

2869
01:43:00,149 --> 01:42:58,400
presenters uh didn't have a chance to to

2870
01:43:03,350 --> 01:43:00,159
receive questions and then the third

2871
01:43:05,750 --> 01:43:03,360
thing um between now and 5 30 or is to

2872
01:43:07,990 --> 01:43:05,760
talk through some key top you know

2873
01:43:11,510 --> 01:43:08,000
preparations for wednesday's outbrief

2874
01:43:13,669 --> 01:43:11,520
um and we have um

2875
01:43:16,149 --> 01:43:13,679
we we have a start at that that we'll

2876
01:43:18,470 --> 01:43:16,159
talk from so but i think as long as it's

2877
01:43:20,390 --> 01:43:18,480
been right here i think at the risk of

2878
01:43:22,550 --> 01:43:20,400
losing the audience we'll take a short

2879
01:43:23,750 --> 01:43:22,560
break for um

2880
01:43:26,950 --> 01:43:23,760
10 minutes

2881
01:43:29,590 --> 01:43:26,960
and and try to get back here by 26 after

2882
01:47:11,510 --> 01:43:29,600
so that we start at 4 30.

2883
01:47:11,520 --> 01:47:22,470
figure out

2884
01:47:22,480 --> 01:47:48,390
okay

2885
01:47:48,400 --> 01:48:01,990
i'm done

2886
01:48:02,000 --> 01:48:28,070
lately

2887
01:48:28,080 --> 01:48:51,350
is

2888
01:48:51,360 --> 01:49:09,510
foreign

2889
01:49:09,520 --> 01:49:36,229
and uh

2890
01:49:36,239 --> 01:49:50,870
um

2891
01:49:50,880 --> 01:50:09,270
you check that out

2892
01:50:56,550 --> 01:50:28,629
okay

2893
01:56:50,229 --> 01:50:58,910
so we were talking about

2894
01:56:53,109 --> 01:56:51,750
no that's good

2895
01:56:56,709 --> 01:56:53,119
all right um

2896
01:56:59,270 --> 01:56:56,719
as we said uh we have one uh edition for

2897
01:57:01,350 --> 01:56:59,280
a short discussion by dr joel cercelle

2898
01:57:02,950 --> 01:57:01,360
he's um his his paper is in another

2899
01:57:04,149 --> 01:57:02,960
session but it really fits better here

2900
01:57:05,350 --> 01:57:04,159
so we're going to give him about five

2901
01:57:06,629 --> 01:57:05,360
minutes to talk

2902
01:57:08,070 --> 01:57:06,639
through that then we'll go back through

2903
01:57:10,470 --> 01:57:08,080
some of the questions that we hadn't

2904
01:57:12,629 --> 01:57:10,480
gotten to and then we'll talk through

2905
01:57:14,629 --> 01:57:12,639
what we want to talk about on wednesday

2906
01:57:16,790 --> 01:57:14,639
dr cersel is the president and founder

2907
01:57:18,950 --> 01:57:16,800
of ics associates which specializes in

2908
01:57:20,550 --> 01:57:18,960
helping clients become more innovative

2909
01:57:22,310 --> 01:57:20,560
and effective at systems engineering and

2910
01:57:24,470 --> 01:57:22,320
project management

2911
01:57:25,910 --> 01:57:24,480
joel has over 25 years of experience

2912
01:57:28,070 --> 01:57:25,920
developing advanced technology and

2913
01:57:30,629 --> 01:57:28,080
innovation products he spent 14 years at

2914
01:57:32,550 --> 01:57:30,639
jpl and two years as a senior program

2915
01:57:34,709 --> 01:57:32,560
manager for the air force joel received

2916
01:57:36,470 --> 01:57:34,719
his phd and master's in mechanical

2917
01:57:38,229 --> 01:57:36,480
engineering from caltech with his

2918
01:57:40,310 --> 01:57:38,239
doctoral dissertation in space

2919
01:57:41,589 --> 01:57:40,320
propulsion plasma physics

2920
01:57:46,229 --> 01:57:41,599
joel

2921
01:57:49,510 --> 01:57:47,910
i'll go fast

2922
01:58:00,390 --> 01:57:49,520
because i'm not going to say much i'm

2923
01:58:04,470 --> 01:58:02,390
has been put in place

2924
01:58:07,270 --> 01:58:04,480
one of the co-architects of this concept

2925
01:58:10,550 --> 01:58:07,280
is james french who you may know from

2926
01:58:13,270 --> 01:58:10,560
being the architect of um

2927
01:58:15,350 --> 01:58:13,280
blue origins satellites he was also the

2928
01:58:16,390 --> 01:58:15,360
chief engineer of amrock the company

2929
01:58:18,550 --> 01:58:16,400
that made the

2930
01:58:20,870 --> 01:58:18,560
hybrid rockets that are in use in virgin

2931
01:58:22,870 --> 01:58:20,880
galactic systems

2932
01:58:24,870 --> 01:58:22,880
another person who worked with us is

2933
01:58:27,430 --> 01:58:24,880
greg maranac who was

2934
01:58:28,790 --> 01:58:27,440
one of the co-founders of the xprize

2935
01:58:31,350 --> 01:58:28,800
foundation

2936
01:58:33,270 --> 01:58:31,360
so we're very excited about this it's a

2937
01:58:35,910 --> 01:58:33,280
radically different approach

2938
01:58:37,350 --> 01:58:35,920
for nearest object redirection

2939
01:58:39,589 --> 01:58:37,360
i'm just going to tell you a couple

2940
01:58:41,189 --> 01:58:39,599
simple things about it number one is

2941
01:58:44,149 --> 01:58:41,199
what is the goal of it we call it

2942
01:58:47,669 --> 01:58:45,430
not to be confused with honeybee

2943
01:58:49,910 --> 01:58:47,679
robotics which is spelled differently or

2944
01:58:51,350 --> 01:58:49,920
there's a bumblebee asteroid deflection

2945
01:58:52,870 --> 01:58:51,360
system that they've been working on in

2946
01:58:54,310 --> 01:58:52,880
scotland that's not presented here this

2947
01:58:55,189 --> 01:58:54,320
year this week

2948
01:58:57,350 --> 01:58:55,199
um

2949
01:58:59,589 --> 01:58:57,360
because it it basically goes out and

2950
01:59:01,270 --> 01:58:59,599
gathers things in a way that's analogous

2951
01:59:03,589 --> 01:59:01,280
to bees and that's all i'm going to say

2952
01:59:05,189 --> 01:59:03,599
about the technical approach

2953
01:59:06,950 --> 01:59:05,199
i'm going to say why we're doing it's

2954
01:59:09,270 --> 01:59:06,960
very important to ask the question why

2955
01:59:10,629 --> 01:59:09,280
are we doing this i think arm is a very

2956
01:59:12,790 --> 01:59:10,639
cool mission

2957
01:59:15,109 --> 01:59:12,800
as currently conceived and the why that

2958
01:59:17,430 --> 01:59:15,119
nasa has is to give astronauts something

2959
01:59:19,109 --> 01:59:17,440
to do that's really cool if that's what

2960
01:59:21,430 --> 01:59:19,119
you want to do but we have a different

2961
01:59:23,589 --> 01:59:21,440
goal which and if again it may also give

2962
01:59:24,629 --> 01:59:23,599
astronauts something much more powerful

2963
01:59:25,990 --> 01:59:24,639
to do

2964
01:59:28,550 --> 01:59:26,000
um so i'm going to give you a

2965
01:59:30,149 --> 01:59:28,560
description of the mission l attributes

2966
01:59:32,950 --> 01:59:30,159
this is the why

2967
01:59:34,550 --> 01:59:32,960
this is the how what i'm not going to do

2968
01:59:36,790 --> 01:59:34,560
is i'm not going to give you the what

2969
01:59:39,750 --> 01:59:36,800
how does it work technically

2970
01:59:41,030 --> 01:59:39,760
that has to go for another place

2971
01:59:42,229 --> 01:59:41,040
um

2972
01:59:44,390 --> 01:59:42,239
talk a little bit about what it would

2973
01:59:45,510 --> 01:59:44,400
take to be successful from the larger

2974
01:59:47,109 --> 01:59:45,520
perspective

2975
01:59:48,310 --> 01:59:47,119
and i'm going to tell you how to contact

2976
01:59:49,990 --> 01:59:48,320
me if you want to discuss the

2977
01:59:50,870 --> 01:59:50,000
proprietary systems and approaches

2978
01:59:52,870 --> 01:59:50,880
because

2979
01:59:57,030 --> 01:59:52,880
when we do this it's going to change

2980
01:59:58,709 --> 01:59:57,040
everything about everything in space

2981
02:00:00,470 --> 01:59:58,719
so why

2982
02:00:02,589 --> 02:00:00,480
the goal is simple

2983
02:00:04,790 --> 02:00:02,599
to make humanity a species that uses

2984
02:00:06,950 --> 02:00:04,800
extraterrestrial resources for practical

2985
02:00:08,950 --> 02:00:06,960
purposes but not to do it with pie in

2986
02:00:10,870 --> 02:00:08,960
the sky to do it with a system that

2987
02:00:14,390 --> 02:00:10,880
today every element of the system is at

2988
02:00:16,470 --> 02:00:14,400
trl4 or above

2989
02:00:18,870 --> 02:00:16,480
it's a and to pilot

2990
02:00:20,950 --> 02:00:18,880
that means to really no no kidding do it

2991
02:00:23,270 --> 02:00:20,960
an affordable method

2992
02:00:25,750 --> 02:00:23,280
to use in a practical way hundreds of

2993
02:00:27,350 --> 02:00:25,760
tons of extraterrestrial resources which

2994
02:00:29,430 --> 02:00:27,360
honeybee does

2995
02:00:31,030 --> 02:00:29,440
to radically reduce and once we do that

2996
02:00:34,229 --> 02:00:31,040
it will radically reduce the cost of

2997
02:00:35,669 --> 02:00:34,239
space operations for all kinds of

2998
02:00:39,430 --> 02:00:35,679
further missions

2999
02:00:41,510 --> 02:00:39,440
so for example when honeybee is in place

3000
02:00:44,950 --> 02:00:41,520
we will have demonstrated the ability to

3001
02:00:47,189 --> 02:00:44,960
essentially convert 1000 ton neo

3002
02:00:49,109 --> 02:00:47,199
to a propellant depot that could be used

3003
02:00:51,430 --> 02:00:49,119
to fill the tanks of a manned mars

3004
02:00:54,070 --> 02:00:51,440
mission at the top of the gravity well

3005
02:00:56,149 --> 02:00:54,080
that collapses the cost of human

3006
02:00:57,910 --> 02:00:56,159
exploration of mars

3007
02:00:59,189 --> 02:00:57,920
it allows you it puts it allows you to

3008
02:01:01,350 --> 02:00:59,199
put in place an inexpensive

3009
02:01:04,070 --> 02:01:01,360
transportation system to go anywhere in

3010
02:01:05,430 --> 02:01:04,080
cis lunar space which includes leo to

3011
02:01:07,910 --> 02:01:05,440
geo

3012
02:01:09,510 --> 02:01:07,920
what it therefore a falcon 9 would have

3013
02:01:12,870 --> 02:01:09,520
the ability to launch

3014
02:01:15,510 --> 02:01:12,880
two 5 000 kilogram geos

3015
02:01:17,990 --> 02:01:15,520
and that's the big class and a 2 500

3016
02:01:20,149 --> 02:01:18,000
kilogram geo all on one falcon line

3017
02:01:21,910 --> 02:01:20,159
launch so someone who is in that

3018
02:01:24,149 --> 02:01:21,920
business tell me how much that saves in

3019
02:01:25,910 --> 02:01:24,159
launch cost i don't know the number i'm

3020
02:01:28,950 --> 02:01:25,920
assuming it's somewhere in the 10 to the

3021
02:01:33,750 --> 02:01:31,430
what does honeybee do it captures

3022
02:01:35,109 --> 02:01:33,760
a neo into cis lunar space a lot like

3023
02:01:37,350 --> 02:01:35,119
arm

3024
02:01:40,390 --> 02:01:37,360
but it's radically different

3025
02:01:43,109 --> 02:01:40,400
in the sense that it uses very simple

3026
02:01:44,950 --> 02:01:43,119
common sense systems nothing

3027
02:01:47,109 --> 02:01:44,960
suffic nothing very high tech or

3028
02:01:49,189 --> 02:01:47,119
advanced there's no

3029
02:01:51,589 --> 02:01:49,199
high power electric processing there's

3030
02:01:54,149 --> 02:01:51,599
no 50 kilowatt solar array there's no

3031
02:01:56,149 --> 02:01:54,159
plasma propulsion and john brophy

3032
02:01:57,589 --> 02:01:56,159
remembers when we did n star i mean i

3033
02:01:59,350 --> 02:01:57,599
i'm a big passionate believer in

3034
02:02:02,550 --> 02:01:59,360
electric propulsion i just don't think

3035
02:02:04,229 --> 02:02:02,560
it's the right choice for this mission

3036
02:02:07,430 --> 02:02:04,239
however unlike arm it does require

3037
02:02:10,149 --> 02:02:07,440
careful selection of the target object

3038
02:02:12,229 --> 02:02:10,159
and so i'm a big believer in the talk

3039
02:02:14,310 --> 02:02:12,239
that mr gump gave

3040
02:02:15,270 --> 02:02:14,320
that said you have to do prospecting

3041
02:02:17,189 --> 02:02:15,280
first

3042
02:02:19,669 --> 02:02:17,199
i used to have a manager who had used to

3043
02:02:21,109 --> 02:02:19,679
assign me to do powerpoint presentations

3044
02:02:22,870 --> 02:02:21,119
and we called it the bring me a rock

3045
02:02:24,310 --> 02:02:22,880
powerpoint method he'd say i want a

3046
02:02:25,990 --> 02:02:24,320
powerpoint presentation about something

3047
02:02:27,830 --> 02:02:26,000
i don't know what it is so i'd bring it

3048
02:02:29,270 --> 02:02:27,840
to him and then he'd have me redo it a

3049
02:02:30,870 --> 02:02:29,280
hundred times if we called it bring me a

3050
02:02:32,629 --> 02:02:30,880
rock bring me a rock maybe a way for

3051
02:02:35,189 --> 02:02:32,639
managers to get powerpoint presentations

3052
02:02:38,390 --> 02:02:35,199
done it should not be the way that nasa

3053
02:02:41,189 --> 02:02:38,400
plans a multi-billion dollar mission

3054
02:02:43,750 --> 02:02:41,199
so um at the technical level if you

3055
02:02:46,149 --> 02:02:43,760
compare honeybee to the baseline arm

3056
02:02:47,589 --> 02:02:46,159
mission concept instead of delivering

3057
02:02:49,109 --> 02:02:47,599
and john i read your different papers

3058
02:02:50,709 --> 02:02:49,119
like there's a little spread in the data

3059
02:02:52,870 --> 02:02:50,719
in terms of the cost it's an evolving

3060
02:02:55,430 --> 02:02:52,880
concept that's all good instead of

3061
02:02:56,910 --> 02:02:55,440
delivering in round numbers 15 tons by

3062
02:02:59,750 --> 02:02:56,920
the way ton is

3063
02:03:01,589 --> 02:02:59,760
t-o-n-n-e-s i just i noticed a lot of

3064
02:03:05,030 --> 02:03:01,599
typos on that in people's talks and i'm

3065
02:03:06,470 --> 02:03:05,040
bad at spelling so instead of 15 tons to

3066
02:03:08,629 --> 02:03:06,480
low c3

3067
02:03:10,390 --> 02:03:08,639
you require only about 3000 kilograms to

3068
02:03:14,310 --> 02:03:10,400
a low c3

3069
02:03:15,990 --> 02:03:14,320
um instead of a long trip time out and

3070
02:03:17,910 --> 02:03:16,000
back it's short

3071
02:03:19,830 --> 02:03:17,920
and it's short i won't tell you exactly

3072
02:03:21,510 --> 02:03:19,840
how but it's more like a very impulsive

3073
02:03:22,550 --> 02:03:21,520
trajectory

3074
02:03:25,430 --> 02:03:22,560
um

3075
02:03:27,669 --> 02:03:25,440
probably reduces the cost a lot and then

3076
02:03:29,830 --> 02:03:27,679
very oh interesting it

3077
02:03:31,350 --> 02:03:29,840
switching from mac to windows to stored

3078
02:03:33,350 --> 02:03:31,360
the

3079
02:03:35,350 --> 02:03:33,360
formatting but anyway instead of

3080
02:03:36,310 --> 02:03:35,360
returning a thousand ton object that now

3081
02:03:37,589 --> 02:03:36,320
you got to figure out what you're going

3082
02:03:40,709 --> 02:03:37,599
to do with it

3083
02:03:43,589 --> 02:03:40,719
it returns the object in such a way that

3084
02:03:46,629 --> 02:03:43,599
we have a functioning fully functioning

3085
02:03:48,709 --> 02:03:46,639
orbiting propellant depot

3086
02:03:50,149 --> 02:03:48,719
um how to get it done i totally agree

3087
02:03:52,310 --> 02:03:50,159
with mr gump's

3088
02:03:54,310 --> 02:03:52,320
point on this it's got to be about

3089
02:03:56,310 --> 02:03:54,320
public private partnership

3090
02:03:59,189 --> 02:03:56,320
a combination of venture capitalists

3091
02:04:01,669 --> 02:03:59,199
aerospace companies nasa and jpl i think

3092
02:04:03,270 --> 02:04:01,679
that's the right way to do it it's what

3093
02:04:04,870 --> 02:04:03,280
we need to do is we need to pull

3094
02:04:07,750 --> 02:04:04,880
together as a community to understand

3095
02:04:08,550 --> 02:04:07,760
it's time to stop screwing around

3096
02:04:10,069 --> 02:04:08,560
with

3097
02:04:12,870 --> 02:04:10,079
high paid tourists that we called

3098
02:04:14,709 --> 02:04:12,880
astronauts in space it started time to

3099
02:04:15,750 --> 02:04:14,719
start doing something really important

3100
02:04:17,189 --> 02:04:15,760
in space

3101
02:04:19,109 --> 02:04:17,199
and this is this is the beginning of

3102
02:04:20,950 --> 02:04:19,119
that process

3103
02:04:22,950 --> 02:04:20,960
so what i'm asking you to do is i'm

3104
02:04:25,030 --> 02:04:22,960
asking you to think not like a 20th

3105
02:04:28,229 --> 02:04:25,040
century architect

3106
02:04:30,069 --> 02:04:28,239
enterprise but like a 21st century

3107
02:04:31,750 --> 02:04:30,079
enterprise if you're interested in

3108
02:04:34,229 --> 02:04:31,760
finding out about it we can talk about

3109
02:04:35,990 --> 02:04:34,239
it under nda and that's my contact

3110
02:04:43,669 --> 02:04:36,000
information so

3111
02:04:47,510 --> 02:04:45,510
all right um

3112
02:04:49,189 --> 02:04:47,520
any questions for a quick question for

3113
02:04:53,109 --> 02:04:49,199
joel or

3114
02:04:54,870 --> 02:04:53,119
we'll go on to um

3115
02:04:56,790 --> 02:04:54,880
okay then we'll go on to

3116
02:04:58,470 --> 02:04:56,800
revisiting uh

3117
02:04:59,830 --> 02:04:58,480
romero could you bring up the

3118
02:05:02,950 --> 02:04:59,840
introduction

3119
02:05:02,960 --> 02:05:08,790
my contact information is

3120
02:05:14,149 --> 02:05:11,910
and then if you would go ahead um

3121
02:05:16,629 --> 02:05:14,159
two slides

3122
02:05:18,550 --> 02:05:16,639
just as a reminder for um this will also

3123
02:05:19,430 --> 02:05:18,560
be a good time place for us to start

3124
02:05:23,430 --> 02:05:19,440
when we

3125
02:05:25,910 --> 02:05:23,440
set the question

3126
02:05:28,229 --> 02:05:25,920
so what i'd like to do is is see where

3127
02:05:29,750 --> 02:05:28,239
we get to in the next 15 minutes or so

3128
02:05:32,069 --> 02:05:29,760
or if we don't have enough questions you

3129
02:05:34,069 --> 02:05:32,079
know we'll go into the next phase but

3130
02:05:36,709 --> 02:05:34,079
so does anyone want to bring back one of

3131
02:05:40,310 --> 02:05:36,719
the presenters or or bring up a point we

3132
02:05:42,310 --> 02:05:40,320
do have several um from um the chat and

3133
02:05:43,350 --> 02:05:42,320
we can start with those unless somebody

3134
02:05:45,990 --> 02:05:43,360
has something

3135
02:05:53,750 --> 02:05:46,000
so go ahead heather if you'd go to a mic

3136
02:05:57,669 --> 02:05:55,350
so i'm going to just start at the

3137
02:05:59,750 --> 02:05:57,679
beginning so john brophy there was

3138
02:06:01,270 --> 02:05:59,760
someone who addressed does the material

3139
02:06:03,830 --> 02:06:01,280
of the bag need to be electrically

3140
02:06:09,589 --> 02:06:03,840
conductive to prevent static charge

3141
02:06:09,599 --> 02:06:12,149
yes

3142
02:06:16,149 --> 02:06:14,310
okay well that was quick all right don't

3143
02:06:18,229 --> 02:06:16,159
sit down don't sit down you're not

3144
02:06:19,830 --> 02:06:18,239
you've got a couple here so somebody

3145
02:06:23,350 --> 02:06:19,840
wants to know how you match the spin

3146
02:06:27,350 --> 02:06:25,990
okay so to match the spin rate um

3147
02:06:29,750 --> 02:06:27,360
you just have to

3148
02:06:32,390 --> 02:06:29,760
there's attitude control thrusters on

3149
02:06:33,990 --> 02:06:32,400
the spacecraft and so you just spin up

3150
02:06:35,350 --> 02:06:34,000
use that to spin up the spacecraft to

3151
02:06:38,390 --> 02:06:35,360
the same

3152
02:06:39,669 --> 02:06:38,400
rotation rate as the asteroid

3153
02:06:42,830 --> 02:06:39,679
we're matching the instantaneous

3154
02:06:44,390 --> 02:06:42,840
rotation right you might want to verify

3155
02:06:46,229 --> 02:06:44,400
yeah

3156
02:06:48,470 --> 02:06:46,239
okay so people are adding more details

3157
02:06:50,229 --> 02:06:48,480
so we watch it long enough to

3158
02:06:51,910 --> 02:06:50,239
be able to know exactly it's spin

3159
02:06:54,229 --> 02:06:51,920
characteristic and project that into the

3160
02:06:56,790 --> 02:06:54,239
future and so that you can then

3161
02:06:58,149 --> 02:06:56,800
match the instantaneous spin right at

3162
02:07:00,149 --> 02:06:58,159
the time you're going to go grab the

3163
02:07:01,910 --> 02:07:00,159
ester and that's for high spin rates

3164
02:07:03,510 --> 02:07:01,920
right for lower spin rates we don't even

3165
02:07:07,030 --> 02:07:03,520
have to bother with that you sure that

3166
02:07:10,229 --> 02:07:08,870
you were presenting john so you were the

3167
02:07:13,510 --> 02:07:10,239
lucky one

3168
02:07:15,189 --> 02:07:13,520
okay uh so then there was a like four or

3169
02:07:17,350 --> 02:07:15,199
five or six different comments that came

3170
02:07:19,990 --> 02:07:17,360
in about electromagnetism so i'm going

3171
02:07:21,350 --> 02:07:20,000
to just kind of describe in general what

3172
02:07:23,910 --> 02:07:21,360
they were and then we can have that

3173
02:07:25,990 --> 02:07:23,920
discussion so should electromagnetism be

3174
02:07:27,109 --> 02:07:26,000
used as a backup to the capture bag as a

3175
02:07:30,709 --> 02:07:27,119
secure

3176
02:07:32,550 --> 02:07:30,719
the um asteroid

3177
02:07:34,069 --> 02:07:32,560
magnetic components within a bag could

3178
02:07:35,510 --> 02:07:34,079
help de-spin

3179
02:07:37,589 --> 02:07:35,520
concept

3180
02:07:40,709 --> 02:07:37,599
generate electromagnetic charge for tow

3181
02:07:42,390 --> 02:07:40,719
and capture what about a tractor beam

3182
02:07:44,790 --> 02:07:42,400
um

3183
02:07:46,470 --> 02:07:44,800
i like the tractor building

3184
02:07:48,750 --> 02:07:46,480
so let's see

3185
02:07:50,550 --> 02:07:48,760
i those were sort of the gist of the

3186
02:07:52,790 --> 02:07:50,560
electromagnetism but there were quite a

3187
02:07:53,830 --> 02:07:52,800
few different threads about that so okay

3188
02:07:56,149 --> 02:07:53,840
so the

3189
02:07:58,550 --> 02:07:56,159
i think the the notion is can you use

3190
02:08:00,470 --> 02:07:58,560
some kind of electromagnetic forces on

3191
02:08:02,870 --> 02:08:00,480
the asteroid to help control it or

3192
02:08:05,030 --> 02:08:02,880
de-tumble it and uh

3193
02:08:06,790 --> 02:08:05,040
that requires you to know a lot about

3194
02:08:08,550 --> 02:08:06,800
the asteroid and how conductive it is

3195
02:08:10,390 --> 02:08:08,560
and how

3196
02:08:11,669 --> 02:08:10,400
you know how you can apply those forces

3197
02:08:12,950 --> 02:08:11,679
so

3198
02:08:15,030 --> 02:08:12,960
probably

3199
02:08:17,030 --> 02:08:15,040
wouldn't be the first approach that we

3200
02:08:20,950 --> 02:08:17,040
would attempt to capture an asteroid

3201
02:08:26,149 --> 02:08:24,149
uh there was a question about if you

3202
02:08:27,910 --> 02:08:26,159
were attached to a nickel iron asteroid

3203
02:08:34,550 --> 02:08:27,920
could you chemically produce hydrogen

3204
02:08:39,430 --> 02:08:35,589
no

3205
02:08:41,350 --> 02:08:39,440
but it would be awesome to find a a

3206
02:08:44,390 --> 02:08:41,360
whole nickel iron asteroid but we

3207
02:08:47,750 --> 02:08:44,400
probably wouldn't bring that back

3208
02:08:53,270 --> 02:08:50,390
all right we talked about that one um

3209
02:08:54,550 --> 02:08:53,280
there was sort of a discussion

3210
02:08:55,990 --> 02:08:54,560
and there really wasn't a question that

3211
02:08:58,069 --> 02:08:56,000
came out of it there was a discussion

3212
02:09:00,069 --> 02:08:58,079
that might be worth capturing about the

3213
02:09:01,910 --> 02:09:00,079
trade between designing a vehicle for

3214
02:09:04,629 --> 02:09:01,920
worst case masses when you have large

3215
02:09:06,950 --> 02:09:04,639
uncertainties versus funding precursor

3216
02:09:09,350 --> 02:09:06,960
robotic precursor missions so there was

3217
02:09:11,270 --> 02:09:09,360
a quite a few different threads about

3218
02:09:12,950 --> 02:09:11,280
that and and um

3219
02:09:15,189 --> 02:09:12,960
in discussing with jim he thought we

3220
02:09:17,109 --> 02:09:15,199
ought to just capture that as a yeah

3221
02:09:18,950 --> 02:09:17,119
well that i mean that that is a you know

3222
02:09:20,229 --> 02:09:18,960
that's a serious issue and that is one

3223
02:09:23,430 --> 02:09:20,239
of the key

3224
02:09:25,189 --> 02:09:23,440
uh drivers for the characterization uh

3225
02:09:25,990 --> 02:09:25,199
the observation campaign

3226
02:09:27,510 --> 02:09:26,000
uh

3227
02:09:29,830 --> 02:09:27,520
the characterization part of that

3228
02:09:32,550 --> 02:09:29,840
campaign and so you have to

3229
02:09:35,430 --> 02:09:32,560
do the right characterizations to

3230
02:09:37,910 --> 02:09:35,440
to limit the uncertainty in the size and

3231
02:09:41,109 --> 02:09:37,920
mass and spin state of the object so

3232
02:09:41,990 --> 02:09:41,119
that it's within the capabilities of

3233
02:09:44,629 --> 02:09:42,000
your

3234
02:09:45,669 --> 02:09:44,639
flight system with appropriate margins

3235
02:09:46,629 --> 02:09:45,679
and

3236
02:09:50,470 --> 02:09:46,639
in the

3237
02:09:52,709 --> 02:09:50,480
period over the last uh

3238
02:09:55,910 --> 02:09:52,719
uh seven or eight months it's clear that

3239
02:09:57,109 --> 02:09:55,920
that such an observation campaign is is

3240
02:09:59,030 --> 02:09:57,119
possible

3241
02:10:01,109 --> 02:09:59,040
and and is

3242
02:10:02,870 --> 02:10:01,119
and part of the reason for that is

3243
02:10:04,229 --> 02:10:02,880
uh you know someone had mentioned in one

3244
02:10:06,069 --> 02:10:04,239
of their talks that there weren't a lot

3245
02:10:07,589 --> 02:10:06,079
of these small objects but uh the

3246
02:10:09,510 --> 02:10:07,599
current population models you know

3247
02:10:11,270 --> 02:10:09,520
suggested basically that all the

3248
02:10:14,149 --> 02:10:11,280
near-earth asteroids to first order are

3249
02:10:15,910 --> 02:10:14,159
small and there are just a scattering of

3250
02:10:16,950 --> 02:10:15,920
larger ones and so

3251
02:10:20,149 --> 02:10:16,960
um

3252
02:10:22,950 --> 02:10:20,159
there are lots of objects potentially to

3253
02:10:25,189 --> 02:10:22,960
to discover and um

3254
02:10:26,709 --> 02:10:25,199
and characterize so we can as i

3255
02:10:28,950 --> 02:10:26,719
mentioned earlier there's the likelihood

3256
02:10:30,790 --> 02:10:28,960
that we'd have 15 to 20

3257
02:10:35,189 --> 02:10:30,800
good well characterized objects that we

3258
02:10:40,629 --> 02:10:38,310
there were a few comments about

3259
02:10:41,430 --> 02:10:40,639
having the mission thought out further

3260
02:10:43,189 --> 02:10:41,440
for

3261
02:10:45,910 --> 02:10:43,199
better integration and long-term

3262
02:10:47,430 --> 02:10:45,920
purposes for the asteroid just a couple

3263
02:10:49,830 --> 02:10:47,440
along that thread

3264
02:10:52,069 --> 02:10:49,840
um and i have a couple of my own though

3265
02:10:54,950 --> 02:10:52,079
that was the end of the virtual ones

3266
02:10:57,350 --> 02:10:54,960
okay if that's okay so um

3267
02:10:59,030 --> 02:10:57,360
the the one was for boeing and i was

3268
02:11:01,910 --> 02:10:59,040
wondering what updates you've done to

3269
02:11:11,830 --> 02:11:01,920
your arnd sensor suite since orbital

3270
02:11:14,470 --> 02:11:12,550
uh

3271
02:11:16,870 --> 02:11:14,480
actually we've done we've done quite a

3272
02:11:18,229 --> 02:11:16,880
lot uh as i mentioned we're uh we're

3273
02:11:21,430 --> 02:11:18,239
developing the vesta system for

3274
02:11:23,109 --> 02:11:21,440
commercial crew and so uh we are headed

3275
02:11:25,830 --> 02:11:23,119
for a critical design review on that

3276
02:11:27,350 --> 02:11:25,840
system here in uh in december

3277
02:11:28,870 --> 02:11:27,360
so that's uh

3278
02:11:32,390 --> 02:11:28,880
that could give you a sense of the

3279
02:11:33,510 --> 02:11:32,400
maturity so the uh the sensors uh three

3280
02:11:35,990 --> 02:11:33,520
different sensor types are in

3281
02:11:39,910 --> 02:11:36,000
development uh the ones i talked about

3282
02:11:44,229 --> 02:11:41,510
beyond that we've done quite a lot of

3283
02:11:46,310 --> 02:11:44,239
work on on the software uh which we

3284
02:11:48,709 --> 02:11:46,320
which we call this star that initially

3285
02:11:50,870 --> 02:11:48,719
flew on orbital express and since then

3286
02:11:53,510 --> 02:11:50,880
we've we've been uh maturing that

3287
02:11:54,950 --> 02:11:53,520
software to make it specifically

3288
02:11:57,910 --> 02:11:54,960
applicable to the international space

3289
02:11:59,430 --> 02:11:57,920
station and so a lot of the the track

3290
02:12:00,149 --> 02:11:59,440
modes that uh

3291
02:12:01,830 --> 02:12:00,159
uh

3292
02:12:03,189 --> 02:12:01,840
there have been papers written you can

3293
02:12:06,470 --> 02:12:03,199
look at this but the different track

3294
02:12:08,229 --> 02:12:06,480
modes that we had on orbital express are

3295
02:12:10,390 --> 02:12:08,239
now being updated

3296
02:12:12,870 --> 02:12:10,400
uh including specific feature track

3297
02:12:13,750 --> 02:12:12,880
modes that are applicable to station and

3298
02:12:19,109 --> 02:12:13,760
those

3299
02:12:20,709 --> 02:12:19,119
are also applicable to natural bodies

3300
02:12:22,069 --> 02:12:20,719
the sorts of

3301
02:12:23,589 --> 02:12:22,079
you know you're looking for features

3302
02:12:24,950 --> 02:12:23,599
they don't have to be any particular

3303
02:12:26,870 --> 02:12:24,960
feature

3304
02:12:28,790 --> 02:12:26,880
so there's a lot of flexibility there in

3305
02:12:30,950 --> 02:12:28,800
terms of what what the details of those

3306
02:12:31,910 --> 02:12:30,960
those features are and we're also doing

3307
02:12:33,350 --> 02:12:31,920
uh

3308
02:12:34,390 --> 02:12:33,360
you know integrated testing in the

3309
02:12:36,229 --> 02:12:34,400
laboratory

3310
02:12:39,430 --> 02:12:36,239
and that's going on today

3311
02:12:41,109 --> 02:12:39,440
so a good bit of

3312
02:12:43,830 --> 02:12:41,119
what i what i talked about there's

3313
02:12:45,910 --> 02:12:43,840
actually hardware in the lab today and

3314
02:12:47,990 --> 02:12:45,920
software integrated in the lab today

3315
02:12:49,270 --> 02:12:48,000
that's doing doing testing on an optical

3316
02:12:52,069 --> 02:12:49,280
range

3317
02:12:54,550 --> 02:12:52,079
thank you and are they the same

3318
02:12:57,109 --> 02:12:54,560
exact sensors or you've updated them the

3319
02:12:58,390 --> 02:12:57,119
same class as i they are updated from

3320
02:13:01,270 --> 02:12:58,400
what we flew on

3321
02:13:03,270 --> 02:13:01,280
orbital express yeah

3322
02:13:05,350 --> 02:13:03,280
it's uh you i think that you mentioned

3323
02:13:07,270 --> 02:13:05,360
one of the sensors is a 3d lighter is

3324
02:13:08,870 --> 02:13:07,280
that scanning or flash or

3325
02:13:11,270 --> 02:13:08,880
uh

3326
02:13:16,550 --> 02:13:11,280
yeah so so at this point let me let me

3327
02:13:21,270 --> 02:13:18,709
that i i probably like to not say right

3328
02:13:22,790 --> 02:13:21,280
now but but

3329
02:13:24,790 --> 02:13:22,800
okay

3330
02:13:25,990 --> 02:13:24,800
but you didn't have one in orbital

3331
02:13:27,589 --> 02:13:26,000
express

3332
02:13:29,750 --> 02:13:27,599
we had a we had a lidar on orbital

3333
02:13:32,069 --> 02:13:29,760
express we had a rangefinder that was a

3334
02:13:34,310 --> 02:13:32,079
scalar that delivered a scalar range so

3335
02:13:38,470 --> 02:13:34,320
this is a this is this is a 3d yeah this

3336
02:13:43,830 --> 02:13:40,310
all right my next question was sort of

3337
02:13:46,470 --> 02:13:43,840
general there were several r d sensor

3338
02:13:49,270 --> 02:13:46,480
presentations made for sort of a suite

3339
02:13:51,830 --> 02:13:49,280
of sensors and i noticed some contained

3340
02:13:53,510 --> 02:13:51,840
ir cameras and some contain only visible

3341
02:13:55,990 --> 02:13:53,520
cameras and we've had a lot of

3342
02:13:57,990 --> 02:13:56,000
discussion and debate about that and

3343
02:13:59,830 --> 02:13:58,000
i don't know if it's appropriate to just

3344
02:14:01,910 --> 02:13:59,840
capture it or if if anyone in the room

3345
02:14:03,750 --> 02:14:01,920
wants a comment about who did include an

3346
02:14:06,229 --> 02:14:03,760
ir camera in their suite the benefit of

3347
02:14:08,470 --> 02:14:06,239
that versus just the visible camera and

3348
02:14:11,350 --> 02:14:08,480
there are certain obvious benefits but

3349
02:14:13,030 --> 02:14:11,360
if anyone wants to address that

3350
02:14:14,790 --> 02:14:13,040
so since i'm i'm standing at the

3351
02:14:16,709 --> 02:14:14,800
microphone like i could start by saying

3352
02:14:20,629 --> 02:14:16,719
that we we include a a long wave

3353
02:14:26,950 --> 02:14:23,510
and and i sort of said why but uh the

3354
02:14:28,069 --> 02:14:26,960
ability to uh to track at night or in

3355
02:14:29,750 --> 02:14:28,079
poor lighting

3356
02:14:31,750 --> 02:14:29,760
when the uh

3357
02:14:34,470 --> 02:14:31,760
or at or at low sun angles

3358
02:14:38,310 --> 02:14:34,480
is a is a good reason to uh to have the

3359
02:14:40,870 --> 02:14:39,430
okay

3360
02:14:46,310 --> 02:14:40,880
are there questions

3361
02:14:50,709 --> 02:14:49,510
oh we have one go ahead and then

3362
02:14:53,030 --> 02:14:50,719
for the

3363
02:14:54,870 --> 02:14:53,040
baseline arv vehicle we've seen some

3364
02:14:57,430 --> 02:14:54,880
engineering sketches

3365
02:14:59,270 --> 02:14:57,440
can anyone describe what tonnage it's

3366
02:15:01,430 --> 02:14:59,280
designed to retrieve or what delta v's

3367
02:15:04,790 --> 02:15:01,440
it achieves outbound and inbound there

3368
02:15:10,229 --> 02:15:06,950
okay yeah so for the i feel weird

3369
02:15:13,109 --> 02:15:11,350
i'll do this

3370
02:15:15,430 --> 02:15:13,119
okay so the

3371
02:15:18,149 --> 02:15:15,440
for the baseline vehicle it was designed

3372
02:15:23,109 --> 02:15:20,550
asteroid masses up to about a thousand

3373
02:15:25,510 --> 02:15:23,119
metric tons and i say about because it

3374
02:15:27,910 --> 02:15:25,520
depends a lot on the specifics of the

3375
02:15:30,470 --> 02:15:27,920
asteroid and it's its orbit and the

3376
02:15:31,350 --> 02:15:30,480
characteristics and also on when you can

3377
02:15:37,030 --> 02:15:31,360
launch

3378
02:15:38,709 --> 02:15:37,040
forth but so you know roughly a thousand

3379
02:15:40,629 --> 02:15:38,719
metric tons is

3380
02:15:41,750 --> 02:15:40,639
is the limit

3381
02:15:44,149 --> 02:15:41,760
so

3382
02:15:47,750 --> 02:15:44,159
and it it uses we can store up to as i

3383
02:15:50,470 --> 02:15:47,760
said about 10 tons of xenon and 400 tons

3384
02:15:52,629 --> 02:15:50,480
400 kilograms of hydrazine so those all

3385
02:15:55,430 --> 02:15:52,639
fit into that as well as the aster the

3386
02:15:58,229 --> 02:15:55,440
capture mechanism size they're all uh

3387
02:16:00,149 --> 02:15:58,239
interrelated to some degree

3388
02:16:01,109 --> 02:16:00,159
oh i'm sorry yeah the delta v

3389
02:16:03,270 --> 02:16:01,119
uh

3390
02:16:04,470 --> 02:16:03,280
so the inbound delta v is on the order

3391
02:16:07,270 --> 02:16:04,480
of

3392
02:16:09,430 --> 02:16:07,280
100 to 200 meters per second

3393
02:16:12,629 --> 02:16:09,440
that again depends on the asteroid and

3394
02:16:16,550 --> 02:16:12,639
part of that goes to

3395
02:16:19,510 --> 02:16:16,560
getting the asteroid into the long term

3396
02:16:22,550 --> 02:16:19,520
dro after the lunar gravity assist the

3397
02:16:24,550 --> 02:16:22,560
outbound delta v depends on

3398
02:16:26,390 --> 02:16:24,560
whether you're spiraling out from earth

3399
02:16:29,030 --> 02:16:26,400
orbit or just doing the heliocentric

3400
02:16:31,589 --> 02:16:29,040
phase and so it could be

3401
02:16:33,349 --> 02:16:31,599
on the order of four to six kilometers

3402
02:16:35,990 --> 02:16:33,359
per second

3403
02:16:40,950 --> 02:16:36,000
maybe more depending on how low in earth

3404
02:16:40,960 --> 02:16:44,549
questions

3405
02:16:44,559 --> 02:16:57,110
yeah no go ahead you go ahead first

3406
02:17:01,429 --> 02:17:00,150
my question is to some extent rhetoric

3407
02:17:04,629 --> 02:17:01,439
because it

3408
02:17:06,549 --> 02:17:04,639
it is addressed to the whole community

3409
02:17:07,589 --> 02:17:06,559
and this question is

3410
02:17:11,429 --> 02:17:07,599
why

3411
02:17:13,349 --> 02:17:11,439
the as a target orbit was chosen the

3412
02:17:16,150 --> 02:17:13,359
cis lunar orbit

3413
02:17:17,589 --> 02:17:16,160
because some other alternative options

3414
02:17:19,030 --> 02:17:17,599
do exist

3415
02:17:20,950 --> 02:17:19,040
for example

3416
02:17:21,750 --> 02:17:20,960
we can transfer

3417
02:17:33,429 --> 02:17:21,760
the

3418
02:17:34,950 --> 02:17:33,439
with period for example one year and in

3419
02:17:38,629 --> 02:17:34,960
this case

3420
02:17:42,389 --> 02:17:38,639
checked

3421
02:17:43,830 --> 02:17:42,399
is only several meters per second

3422
02:17:47,190 --> 02:17:43,840
and

3423
02:17:50,230 --> 02:17:47,200
we can reach this asteroid

3424
02:17:51,750 --> 02:17:50,240
in the ideal case two times

3425
02:17:54,230 --> 02:17:51,760
per year

3426
02:17:56,389 --> 02:17:54,240
and the arrival delta v

3427
02:18:00,150 --> 02:17:56,399
will be almost in

3428
02:18:02,150 --> 02:18:00,160
ideally zero and departure also

3429
02:18:06,629 --> 02:18:02,160
almost zero

3430
02:18:10,549 --> 02:18:08,230
all right well i'll take a crack at that

3431
02:18:14,389 --> 02:18:10,559
we look we talked a lot about where to

3432
02:18:16,230 --> 02:18:14,399
deliver the asteroid to

3433
02:18:18,389 --> 02:18:16,240
and uh the selection of the distant

3434
02:18:20,150 --> 02:18:18,399
retrograde orbit around the moon

3435
02:18:22,309 --> 02:18:20,160
appeared to be a good choice because it

3436
02:18:24,950 --> 02:18:22,319
was an orbit that

3437
02:18:27,750 --> 02:18:24,960
both the app the asteroid retrieval

3438
02:18:28,549 --> 02:18:27,760
vehicle with a thousand ton asteroid in

3439
02:18:31,429 --> 02:18:28,559
tow

3440
02:18:32,309 --> 02:18:31,439
could get to for a reasonable delta v

3441
02:18:41,349 --> 02:18:32,319
and

3442
02:18:43,589 --> 02:18:41,359
multiple opportunities

3443
02:18:46,629 --> 02:18:43,599
per year

3444
02:18:48,629 --> 02:18:46,639
oh okay yeah and if you lose control

3445
02:18:50,309 --> 02:18:48,639
after a couple hundred years or whatever

3446
02:18:53,190 --> 02:18:50,319
yeah it won't hit the earth even though

3447
02:18:54,709 --> 02:18:53,200
it's of a size it's not a hazard

3448
02:18:58,230 --> 02:18:54,719
it's kind of a belt and suspenders

3449
02:18:58,240 --> 02:19:04,709
all right another question

3450
02:19:08,389 --> 02:19:06,709
yeah everyone's picking on john here but

3451
02:19:11,190 --> 02:19:08,399
uh um

3452
02:19:12,309 --> 02:19:11,200
my question is also to you uh a question

3453
02:19:14,870 --> 02:19:12,319
i'm sorry

3454
02:19:17,429 --> 02:19:14,880
but i was curious though about uh the

3455
02:19:19,110 --> 02:19:17,439
dependence on the arm mission today in

3456
02:19:21,110 --> 02:19:19,120
terms of the sonatic period of the

3457
02:19:22,709 --> 02:19:21,120
asteroids in this sense and that you

3458
02:19:24,070 --> 02:19:22,719
probably have a launch window to launch

3459
02:19:25,750 --> 02:19:24,080
arm okay so then you have to go after

3460
02:19:27,110 --> 02:19:25,760
this asteroid but if you miss it the

3461
02:19:28,150 --> 02:19:27,120
sonatic periods of these objects are

3462
02:19:30,469 --> 02:19:28,160
such that you're never gonna be able to

3463
02:19:32,150 --> 02:19:30,479
go back to that one again so how how

3464
02:19:35,270 --> 02:19:32,160
many backup targets do you need to make

3465
02:19:36,709 --> 02:19:35,280
sure you can fulfill your mission

3466
02:19:39,110 --> 02:19:36,719
one no

3467
02:19:40,629 --> 02:19:39,120
so yeah that's a really good point and

3468
02:19:43,669 --> 02:19:40,639
that's why what you really want what you

3469
02:19:45,669 --> 02:19:43,679
need for a robust mission is to have

3470
02:19:47,589 --> 02:19:45,679
multiple backup targets in multiple

3471
02:19:49,429 --> 02:19:47,599
years

3472
02:19:51,670 --> 02:19:49,439
uh you know the programmatics are such

3473
02:19:53,510 --> 02:19:51,680
that you're we're not sure you know when

3474
02:19:54,870 --> 02:19:53,520
you could launch or if you run into

3475
02:19:56,790 --> 02:19:54,880
technical difficulties and you have to

3476
02:19:59,510 --> 02:19:56,800
launch six months or a year later

3477
02:20:01,510 --> 02:19:59,520
uh you need to have a robust series of

3478
02:20:02,389 --> 02:20:01,520
targets in multiple years that you can

3479
02:20:04,230 --> 02:20:02,399
go to

3480
02:20:06,309 --> 02:20:04,240
and uh and that's why

3481
02:20:08,630 --> 02:20:06,319
um yeah so you know because of the

3482
02:20:10,150 --> 02:20:08,640
synodic period problem if you miss it

3483
02:20:12,710 --> 02:20:10,160
you've got to go to a different target

3484
02:20:14,950 --> 02:20:12,720
unless uh it depends on you know it's

3485
02:20:16,309 --> 02:20:14,960
not quite that black and white because

3486
02:20:18,469 --> 02:20:16,319
if you change launch vehicles if you

3487
02:20:21,429 --> 02:20:18,479
plan to fly in an atlas 5 for example

3488
02:20:23,190 --> 02:20:21,439
and spiral out from earth orbit

3489
02:20:24,950 --> 02:20:23,200
if you miss that launch and you have an

3490
02:20:27,429 --> 02:20:24,960
opportunity to launch on a falcon heavy

3491
02:20:29,830 --> 02:20:27,439
for example you can then

3492
02:20:31,590 --> 02:20:29,840
make up that year to year and a half

3493
02:20:33,030 --> 02:20:31,600
slip by launching by eliminating the

3494
02:20:34,870 --> 02:20:33,040
spiral out time and going directly so

3495
02:20:36,230 --> 02:20:34,880
you have some flexibility there as well

3496
02:20:38,230 --> 02:20:36,240
you may want to talk about the launch

3497
02:20:40,870 --> 02:20:38,240
window in the same

3498
02:20:42,950 --> 02:20:40,880
sense because scp does change the

3499
02:20:45,590 --> 02:20:42,960
dynamics of that significance oh you may

3500
02:20:47,670 --> 02:20:45,600
want to repeat that okay so

3501
02:20:49,429 --> 02:20:47,680
and and jim's right so the other uh

3502
02:20:51,110 --> 02:20:49,439
part of this is uh with electric

3503
02:20:53,670 --> 02:20:51,120
propulsion you get a

3504
02:20:55,750 --> 02:20:53,680
longer launch period than you normally

3505
02:20:57,590 --> 02:20:55,760
get with um uh

3506
02:20:59,830 --> 02:20:57,600
ballistic interplanetary spacecraft and

3507
02:21:02,389 --> 02:20:59,840
so you have additional flexibility don

3508
02:21:03,750 --> 02:21:02,399
is a good example of that

3509
02:21:05,270 --> 02:21:03,760
i won't bore you with all the details

3510
02:21:06,469 --> 02:21:05,280
but at the very end it was going to

3511
02:21:07,830 --> 02:21:06,479
launch in

3512
02:21:09,270 --> 02:21:07,840
the beginning of july and it wound up

3513
02:21:11,349 --> 02:21:09,280
launching at the end of september but it

3514
02:21:13,030 --> 02:21:11,359
could still do this multiple

3515
02:21:14,070 --> 02:21:13,040
main belt asteroid rendezvous mission

3516
02:21:15,670 --> 02:21:14,080
because of the use of electric

3517
02:21:19,349 --> 02:21:15,680
propulsion so you get that added

3518
02:21:24,950 --> 02:21:20,469
okay

3519
02:21:29,270 --> 02:21:27,510
one last one

3520
02:21:31,750 --> 02:21:29,280
we've been talking a lot about solar

3521
02:21:35,190 --> 02:21:31,760
electric propulsion and one of the

3522
02:21:38,230 --> 02:21:35,200
comments early on early comments was

3523
02:21:40,150 --> 02:21:38,240
launching into a highly elliptical orbit

3524
02:21:42,550 --> 02:21:40,160
we've been looking at small orbital

3525
02:21:43,429 --> 02:21:42,560
debris and it's getting a whole lot

3526
02:21:44,550 --> 02:21:43,439
worse

3527
02:21:47,190 --> 02:21:44,560
and

3528
02:21:49,510 --> 02:21:47,200
one of the things that we looked at was

3529
02:21:52,309 --> 02:21:49,520
that a highly elliptical orbit like

3530
02:21:54,790 --> 02:21:52,319
we're planning for sls a couple of the

3531
02:21:57,349 --> 02:21:54,800
first couple of missions gets you out of

3532
02:21:58,150 --> 02:21:57,359
that problem very quickly

3533
02:22:00,710 --> 02:21:58,160
but

3534
02:22:01,750 --> 02:22:00,720
uh is there i've heard a lot of comments

3535
02:22:02,469 --> 02:22:01,760
about

3536
02:22:05,429 --> 02:22:02,479
the

3537
02:22:07,110 --> 02:22:05,439
van allen belts and trying to avoid

3538
02:22:10,309 --> 02:22:07,120
exposure to that

3539
02:22:12,710 --> 02:22:10,319
has the small orbital debris exposure

3540
02:22:13,910 --> 02:22:12,720
which is getting worse and worse as time

3541
02:22:17,110 --> 02:22:13,920
goes by

3542
02:22:21,110 --> 02:22:17,120
has anybody been figuring that into

3543
02:22:23,670 --> 02:22:21,120
how they do their launch to avoid

3544
02:22:31,190 --> 02:22:23,680
having to slowly spiral out through the

3545
02:22:33,910 --> 02:22:32,790
all right so

3546
02:22:36,389 --> 02:22:33,920
um

3547
02:22:38,389 --> 02:22:36,399
so the the reference mission that we

3548
02:22:40,469 --> 02:22:38,399
spent most of the time on uh launches

3549
02:22:43,190 --> 02:22:40,479
directly to the lunar gravity assist so

3550
02:22:45,510 --> 02:22:43,200
eliminates that problem entirely um

3551
02:22:47,590 --> 02:22:45,520
there is a wide range of intermediate

3552
02:22:49,510 --> 02:22:47,600
orbits that you could launch to

3553
02:22:50,469 --> 02:22:49,520
including gto and other elliptical

3554
02:22:51,590 --> 02:22:50,479
orbits

3555
02:22:53,270 --> 02:22:51,600
but we haven't spent a lot of time

3556
02:22:55,110 --> 02:22:53,280
looking at the orbital debris problem we

3557
02:22:57,429 --> 02:22:55,120
did spend a little time looking at the

3558
02:23:00,230 --> 02:22:57,439
radiation degradation on the solar rays

3559
02:23:02,790 --> 02:23:00,240
and the need to make them bigger

3560
02:23:03,750 --> 02:23:02,800
to accommodate that but certainly if you

3561
02:23:08,870 --> 02:23:03,760
were

3562
02:23:10,469 --> 02:23:08,880
choice to launch on an elv and spiral

3563
02:23:12,550 --> 02:23:10,479
out from some elliptical earth orbit you

3564
02:23:14,469 --> 02:23:12,560
would definitely have to accommodate or

3565
02:23:16,150 --> 02:23:14,479
make accommodations for that orbital

3566
02:23:18,710 --> 02:23:16,160
debris issue or make sure that you

3567
02:23:20,309 --> 02:23:18,720
understood it

3568
02:23:21,750 --> 02:23:20,319
okay thank you

3569
02:23:23,590 --> 02:23:21,760
for one more

3570
02:23:25,830 --> 02:23:23,600
one more

3571
02:23:28,950 --> 02:23:25,840
i think this this one is for lma i think

3572
02:23:31,110 --> 02:23:28,960
lma mentioned some sort of

3573
02:23:32,790 --> 02:23:31,120
a concept about laser measurements that

3574
02:23:34,790 --> 02:23:32,800
i wasn't familiar with is some

3575
02:23:36,150 --> 02:23:34,800
holographic

3576
02:23:37,590 --> 02:23:36,160
something

3577
02:23:38,790 --> 02:23:37,600
can you explain a little bit more what

3578
02:23:41,830 --> 02:23:38,800
that does

3579
02:23:48,309 --> 02:23:46,230
is it a point cloud or is it

3580
02:23:50,469 --> 02:23:48,319
unfortunately

3581
02:23:53,670 --> 02:23:50,479
no

3582
02:23:55,230 --> 02:23:53,680
it sorry but i can put you in touch with

3583
02:23:58,710 --> 02:23:55,240
somebody

3584
02:24:00,469 --> 02:23:58,720
is it something that is a new concept or

3585
02:24:02,389 --> 02:24:00,479
this is something that it's something

3586
02:24:06,150 --> 02:24:02,399
they've been working working on for

3587
02:24:10,230 --> 02:24:08,150
mostly for terrestrial

3588
02:24:12,630 --> 02:24:10,240
but it's also they've been looking at

3589
02:24:17,030 --> 02:24:15,190
okay all right thank you

3590
02:24:19,190 --> 02:24:17,040
um we come to our last item but it's a

3591
02:24:22,070 --> 02:24:19,200
big item for our last 30 minutes in this

3592
02:24:24,870 --> 02:24:22,080
session um and i just want to um remind

3593
02:24:26,550 --> 02:24:24,880
us uh what the purpose of this wednesday

3594
02:24:29,670 --> 02:24:26,560
session briefing what's what's being

3595
02:24:31,590 --> 02:24:29,680
asked of us um and there were five top

3596
02:24:33,349 --> 02:24:31,600
michelle talked it this morning at the

3597
02:24:35,190 --> 02:24:33,359
plenary but there were five main

3598
02:24:36,870 --> 02:24:35,200
categories that we wanted to we were

3599
02:24:38,870 --> 02:24:36,880
asked to present what our session

3600
02:24:40,710 --> 02:24:38,880
purpose was what our rfi selection

3601
02:24:43,030 --> 02:24:40,720
process and agenda we've talked those

3602
02:24:45,270 --> 02:24:43,040
already in here we'll make slight mods

3603
02:24:47,110 --> 02:24:45,280
to the agenda but we're basically he'll

3604
02:24:49,750 --> 02:24:47,120
um and then key topics discussed and

3605
02:24:51,510 --> 02:24:49,760
findings oh and i forgot to get the

3606
02:24:54,790 --> 02:24:51,520
um

3607
02:24:54,800 --> 02:25:07,110
no

3608
02:25:11,190 --> 02:25:09,030
so we have about four charts that we put

3609
02:25:12,950 --> 02:25:11,200
together a few of us just based on

3610
02:25:14,630 --> 02:25:12,960
having read the rfi's

3611
02:25:16,790 --> 02:25:14,640
just for a starting point for the

3612
02:25:18,389 --> 02:25:16,800
audience because otherwise 40 people

3613
02:25:21,429 --> 02:25:18,399
creating four charts probably doesn't

3614
02:25:23,670 --> 02:25:21,439
work so well but um so the first first

3615
02:25:25,510 --> 02:25:23,680
part of that is and and i should ask add

3616
02:25:27,510 --> 02:25:25,520
a little more the first part of it is

3617
02:25:29,270 --> 02:25:27,520
what key topics did we discuss and then

3618
02:25:31,990 --> 02:25:29,280
what findings

3619
02:25:33,349 --> 02:25:32,000
and uh for findings uh what we're asked

3620
02:25:35,030 --> 02:25:33,359
to provide is a summary of the most

3621
02:25:36,870 --> 02:25:35,040
promising ideas including their

3622
02:25:38,469 --> 02:25:36,880
innovativeness and potential for

3623
02:25:39,990 --> 02:25:38,479
improving mission system performance and

3624
02:25:41,830 --> 02:25:40,000
affordability

3625
02:25:43,429 --> 02:25:41,840
any technology development needed to

3626
02:25:46,950 --> 02:25:43,439
mature the ideas to the point where they

3627
02:25:48,630 --> 02:25:46,960
can be incorporated into system designs

3628
02:25:49,910 --> 02:25:48,640
relationships are linkages between the

3629
02:25:51,830 --> 02:25:49,920
ideas that could help with mission

3630
02:25:53,349 --> 02:25:51,840
system concept integration and further

3631
02:25:54,710 --> 02:25:53,359
studies are next steps and i will admit

3632
02:25:56,150 --> 02:25:54,720
that when we put this together we didn't

3633
02:25:57,590 --> 02:25:56,160
have guidance

3634
02:25:59,110 --> 02:25:57,600
so they probably don't match quite

3635
02:26:01,830 --> 02:25:59,120
exactly

3636
02:26:03,590 --> 02:26:01,840
but we'll go through it and as we'll

3637
02:26:05,910 --> 02:26:03,600
just kind of talk through and and open

3638
02:26:08,550 --> 02:26:05,920
it up for comments as we do the first

3639
02:26:10,550 --> 02:26:08,560
thing we thought we did would do is and

3640
02:26:12,630 --> 02:26:10,560
and again uh you know some of this we

3641
02:26:14,469 --> 02:26:12,640
may be off on how we did it because it

3642
02:26:15,990 --> 02:26:14,479
may not have been quite talked

3643
02:26:17,990 --> 02:26:16,000
as we were going through it but the

3644
02:26:20,309 --> 02:26:18,000
first thing we did is kind of divided

3645
02:26:21,910 --> 02:26:20,319
our topics into these six these five

3646
02:26:23,270 --> 02:26:21,920
categories and then on the next two

3647
02:26:25,110 --> 02:26:23,280
charts we'll talk a little bit more

3648
02:26:27,590 --> 02:26:25,120
detail of each of these five

3649
02:26:30,950 --> 02:26:27,600
um but we kind of we kind of heard a lot

3650
02:26:33,030 --> 02:26:30,960
about uh vehicle systems you know use of

3651
02:26:34,870 --> 02:26:33,040
spacecraft buses that kind of stuff

3652
02:26:37,030 --> 02:26:34,880
there's a large category in sensing

3653
02:26:39,190 --> 02:26:37,040
systems and algorithms

3654
02:26:40,710 --> 02:26:39,200
mission enhancements to the base

3655
02:26:42,950 --> 02:26:40,720
reference mission

3656
02:26:44,630 --> 02:26:42,960
extensibility considerations and

3657
02:26:47,030 --> 02:26:44,640
alternate mission scenarios and concept

3658
02:26:48,230 --> 02:26:47,040
of operations

3659
02:26:50,389 --> 02:26:48,240
we'll go through them next but does

3660
02:26:52,469 --> 02:26:50,399
anybody have any comments at this point

3661
02:26:54,389 --> 02:26:52,479
do they sound about right for the types

3662
02:26:55,110 --> 02:26:54,399
of things we heard it's kind of hard as

3663
02:27:00,950 --> 02:26:55,120
as

3664
02:27:03,030 --> 02:27:00,960
so i i realize how hard that is to do so

3665
02:27:05,270 --> 02:27:03,040
i guess i guess i would comment that i

3666
02:27:07,429 --> 02:27:05,280
heard an awful lot about different

3667
02:27:09,270 --> 02:27:07,439
business strategies you know it's sort

3668
02:27:10,710 --> 02:27:09,280
of i don't know if it fits well with

3669
02:27:13,349 --> 02:27:10,720
everything up there but there were

3670
02:27:14,389 --> 02:27:13,359
different ways of of structuring how we

3671
02:27:16,710 --> 02:27:14,399
do this

3672
02:27:17,750 --> 02:27:16,720
not necessarily the specifics of what we

3673
02:27:20,230 --> 02:27:17,760
do

3674
02:27:22,309 --> 02:27:20,240
right that i i i thought that came

3675
02:27:25,110 --> 02:27:22,319
through in several of the

3676
02:27:26,870 --> 02:27:25,120
items today any any other comments

3677
02:27:30,070 --> 02:27:26,880
that was a good comment

3678
02:27:31,670 --> 02:27:30,080
go ahead john

3679
02:27:34,309 --> 02:27:31,680
yeah i have one comment that seems a

3680
02:27:36,230 --> 02:27:34,319
little counter almost uh the innovation

3681
02:27:37,990 --> 02:27:36,240
and everything else um that we mentioned

3682
02:27:39,990 --> 02:27:38,000
which is there was a theme throughout

3683
02:27:41,990 --> 02:27:40,000
all the presentations which is that for

3684
02:27:43,510 --> 02:27:42,000
most of the areas it seems like there's

3685
02:27:45,030 --> 02:27:43,520
a broad base where we can leverage

3686
02:27:46,309 --> 02:27:45,040
existing assets capabilities and

3687
02:27:47,990 --> 02:27:46,319
expertise

3688
02:27:50,230 --> 02:27:48,000
and then we won't need to

3689
02:27:51,990 --> 02:27:50,240
rely on lots of technology development

3690
02:27:53,349 --> 02:27:52,000
throughout the overall mission in the

3691
02:27:54,309 --> 02:27:53,359
areas where there is a lot of innovation

3692
02:28:01,110 --> 02:27:54,319
you know that's where they'll be looking

3693
02:28:05,190 --> 02:28:03,910
i'm thinking both of those really fit

3694
02:28:08,630 --> 02:28:05,200
under

3695
02:28:10,950 --> 02:28:08,640
most promising ideas that

3696
02:28:11,830 --> 02:28:10,960
help to reduce

3697
02:28:14,469 --> 02:28:11,840
um

3698
02:28:17,270 --> 02:28:14,479
improve system performance

3699
02:28:19,429 --> 02:28:17,280
and um contribute to affordability both

3700
02:28:22,150 --> 02:28:19,439
of them could show up under that first

3701
02:28:23,830 --> 02:28:22,160
bullet couldn't they

3702
02:28:25,590 --> 02:28:23,840
and and what first quality are you

3703
02:28:27,830 --> 02:28:25,600
talking about the first bulletin

3704
02:28:30,950 --> 02:28:27,840
findings is this turned on can anyone

3705
02:28:30,960 --> 02:28:33,349
okay

3706
02:28:38,309 --> 02:28:36,309
all right any other comments

3707
02:28:41,910 --> 02:28:38,319
all right let's step through

3708
02:28:47,110 --> 02:28:45,110
on in vehicle systems

3709
02:28:48,309 --> 02:28:47,120
we had discussions on key technology

3710
02:28:50,790 --> 02:28:48,319
readiness

3711
02:28:53,670 --> 02:28:50,800
areas solar arrays thrusters power

3712
02:28:56,710 --> 02:28:53,680
processing units

3713
02:28:58,550 --> 02:28:56,720
adaptations of existing spacecraft buses

3714
02:29:00,309 --> 02:28:58,560
uh the balance i don't think i heard

3715
02:29:02,550 --> 02:29:00,319
this so much as we saw in the papers we

3716
02:29:04,230 --> 02:29:02,560
thought but we can talk about whether we

3717
02:29:05,670 --> 02:29:04,240
felt like we did a balance between

3718
02:29:07,830 --> 02:29:05,680
technology development for improved

3719
02:29:09,830 --> 02:29:07,840
mission versus you oh no this one we

3720
02:29:11,270 --> 02:29:09,840
certainly did use of low risk mature

3721
02:29:13,349 --> 02:29:11,280
technologies that was the kind of the

3722
02:29:15,190 --> 02:29:13,359
comment that that john made what i

3723
02:29:15,990 --> 02:29:15,200
didn't hear necessarily was a talk about

3724
02:29:22,710 --> 02:29:16,000
a

3725
02:29:24,790 --> 02:29:22,720
something in them

3726
02:29:26,309 --> 02:29:24,800
and then off uh have alpha amps um

3727
02:29:28,469 --> 02:29:26,319
certainly the plan we have right now is

3728
02:29:31,030 --> 02:29:28,479
to pick some medium level and off-ramp

3729
02:29:32,469 --> 02:29:31,040
if it need be

3730
02:29:34,950 --> 02:29:32,479
as opposed to trying to unramp it

3731
02:29:36,469 --> 02:29:34,960
especially if our target schedule is

3732
02:29:37,349 --> 02:29:36,479
what it is so

3733
02:29:39,190 --> 02:29:37,359
and then

3734
02:29:41,429 --> 02:29:39,200
key risk and development areas

3735
02:29:43,830 --> 02:29:41,439
uh asteroid characterization rendezvous

3736
02:29:46,230 --> 02:29:43,840
and capture system solar arrays high

3737
02:29:47,270 --> 02:29:46,240
power thrusters power processing units

3738
02:29:48,710 --> 02:29:47,280
although

3739
02:29:50,070 --> 02:29:48,720
really we hear talks about that being

3740
02:29:51,830 --> 02:29:50,080
fairly mature so maybe that shouldn't be

3741
02:29:54,710 --> 02:29:51,840
on this list but we can talk about it

3742
02:29:56,389 --> 02:29:54,720
xenon tanks dust and volatiles

3743
02:29:58,150 --> 02:29:56,399
so i'll stop there and just kind of open

3744
02:30:00,150 --> 02:29:58,160
up the discussions on does this

3745
02:30:05,750 --> 02:30:00,160
adequately capture things and and are

3746
02:30:09,910 --> 02:30:07,590
yeah the one thing i think that probably

3747
02:30:12,150 --> 02:30:09,920
needs to be added to that that i heard

3748
02:30:16,550 --> 02:30:12,160
in a number of the presentations is that

3749
02:30:16,560 --> 02:30:19,910
capability for simulation

3750
02:30:24,790 --> 02:30:22,550
and test of many of these systems on the

3751
02:30:26,150 --> 02:30:24,800
ground and lab

3752
02:30:33,910 --> 02:30:26,160
so i think they didn't need to capture

3753
02:30:38,150 --> 02:30:35,190
we'll see if we have that somewhere

3754
02:30:41,990 --> 02:30:38,160
coming up i don't think we do though

3755
02:30:46,790 --> 02:30:44,630
yeah ppus i think we take off

3756
02:30:48,309 --> 02:30:46,800
there was discussion xenon tanks but

3757
02:30:50,710 --> 02:30:48,319
it's really a go design not really a

3758
02:30:51,830 --> 02:30:50,720
technology or a key risk area does

3759
02:30:54,309 --> 02:30:51,840
anybody

3760
02:30:58,230 --> 02:30:56,309
there's still some out there that think

3761
02:31:00,950 --> 02:30:58,240
that we should leave the power

3762
02:31:03,030 --> 02:31:00,960
processing units i think

3763
02:31:05,110 --> 02:31:03,040
okay what it's worth um

3764
02:31:07,429 --> 02:31:05,120
there was at least

3765
02:31:09,510 --> 02:31:07,439
the european talk talked about something

3766
02:31:11,990 --> 02:31:09,520
other than hall thrusters

3767
02:31:12,790 --> 02:31:12,000
and we've seen that a couple of times

3768
02:31:16,950 --> 02:31:12,800
where

3769
02:31:19,429 --> 02:31:16,960
the discussion was uh can we do you know

3770
02:31:20,550 --> 02:31:19,439
other plasma based

3771
02:31:22,309 --> 02:31:20,560
sep

3772
02:31:25,429 --> 02:31:22,319
i think we're we're going to run into a

3773
02:31:27,349 --> 02:31:25,439
technology timeline difficulty with that

3774
02:31:30,389 --> 02:31:27,359
but it was definitely brought up as a

3775
02:31:31,990 --> 02:31:30,399
discussion point that's true um and

3776
02:31:34,309 --> 02:31:32,000
and it has some very interesting

3777
02:31:36,469 --> 02:31:34,319
features but as you said and as they

3778
02:31:37,510 --> 02:31:36,479
pointed out the trl is still

3779
02:31:38,870 --> 02:31:37,520
something that

3780
02:31:40,630 --> 02:31:38,880
makes it challenging but but it's a good

3781
02:31:41,510 --> 02:31:40,640
thing to bring out

3782
02:31:43,510 --> 02:31:41,520
um

3783
02:31:50,309 --> 02:31:43,520
anything else

3784
02:31:58,469 --> 02:31:52,150
would you go to a mic please

3785
02:32:01,910 --> 02:32:00,309
i think one of the key things in the

3786
02:32:03,830 --> 02:32:01,920
vehicle in the sensing systems is we're

3787
02:32:06,230 --> 02:32:03,840
not exactly sure what we're going to go

3788
02:32:09,190 --> 02:32:06,240
and find even if there are precursor

3789
02:32:11,030 --> 02:32:09,200
missions so i think one of the key

3790
02:32:12,870 --> 02:32:11,040
design requirements is that you know

3791
02:32:15,190 --> 02:32:12,880
either the vehicle system or the sensing

3792
02:32:16,950 --> 02:32:15,200
system needs to be very flexible

3793
02:32:17,670 --> 02:32:16,960
to be able to accommodate a large number

3794
02:32:19,429 --> 02:32:17,680
of

3795
02:32:21,590 --> 02:32:19,439
surfaces or other pieces that we're

3796
02:32:23,510 --> 02:32:21,600
going to encounter there

3797
02:32:24,550 --> 02:32:23,520
i think that was one of the key unknowns

3798
02:32:26,550 --> 02:32:24,560
we saw throughout everyone's

3799
02:32:27,990 --> 02:32:26,560
presentation was

3800
02:32:29,830 --> 02:32:28,000
you know how do i

3801
02:32:36,950 --> 02:32:29,840
know what i'm designing for or do i

3802
02:32:42,230 --> 02:32:39,270
one other thing jim yeah i don't know if

3803
02:32:44,550 --> 02:32:42,240
it fits here under vehicle systems or

3804
02:32:46,469 --> 02:32:44,560
someplace else but you know there was

3805
02:32:48,870 --> 02:32:46,479
there's still a lot of open discussion

3806
02:32:50,710 --> 02:32:48,880
about the type of capture mechanism

3807
02:32:51,990 --> 02:32:50,720
whether you're going to go grab regolith

3808
02:32:53,750 --> 02:32:52,000
or whether you're going to pick off a

3809
02:32:55,750 --> 02:32:53,760
rock or whether you're going to grab the

3810
02:32:58,630 --> 02:32:55,760
whole thing and if you are how does that

3811
02:33:00,389 --> 02:32:58,640
work with the dynamics it's not part of

3812
02:33:02,630 --> 02:33:00,399
the sensing system and algorithms and

3813
02:33:04,230 --> 02:33:02,640
it's not part of

3814
02:33:06,070 --> 02:33:04,240
so it could be under vehicle systems

3815
02:33:08,469 --> 02:33:06,080
unless you want to bucket that i think

3816
02:33:10,309 --> 02:33:08,479
we bucketed it under alternate missions

3817
02:33:13,110 --> 02:33:10,319
okay concept of operation

3818
02:33:14,630 --> 02:33:13,120
but but i think a subset of that is just

3819
02:33:16,230 --> 02:33:14,640
how you're going to actually grab

3820
02:33:18,790 --> 02:33:16,240
whatever it is oh yeah that's true

3821
02:33:20,630 --> 02:33:18,800
that's true and actually with that

3822
02:33:22,710 --> 02:33:20,640
there's also there's a lot of discussion

3823
02:33:24,790 --> 02:33:22,720
about precursors i don't know if it goes

3824
02:33:27,110 --> 02:33:24,800
there or alternative missions but it

3825
02:33:29,270 --> 02:33:27,120
seemed um that was a

3826
02:33:30,870 --> 02:33:29,280
yeah let's let's not lose that thought

3827
02:33:32,870 --> 02:33:30,880
um and see if we get there when we get

3828
02:33:33,590 --> 02:33:32,880
to those i think we do but but i'm not

3829
02:33:34,550 --> 02:33:33,600
sure

3830
02:33:36,790 --> 02:33:34,560
um

3831
02:33:39,349 --> 02:33:36,800
especially on the capture system but for

3832
02:33:41,750 --> 02:33:39,359
all vehicle systems being able to vnv it

3833
02:33:44,150 --> 02:33:41,760
on the ground is incredibly important

3834
02:33:45,590 --> 02:33:44,160
and the capture system the whole

3835
02:33:48,309 --> 02:33:45,600
driving

3836
02:33:50,230 --> 02:33:48,319
you know philosophy underlying the the

3837
02:33:52,469 --> 02:33:50,240
reference capture system is the ability

3838
02:33:54,630 --> 02:33:52,479
to vnv it on the ground that's the

3839
02:33:56,150 --> 02:33:54,640
overriding concern okay

3840
02:33:58,230 --> 02:33:56,160
jim one other input too and i don't know

3841
02:33:59,990 --> 02:33:58,240
if it goes here or if you've got it on

3842
02:34:01,990 --> 02:34:00,000
vehicle systems if the the concept of

3843
02:34:03,030 --> 02:34:02,000
designing for reusability extensibility

3844
02:34:04,950 --> 02:34:03,040
long life

3845
02:34:06,710 --> 02:34:04,960
that i don't know we have a you got a

3846
02:34:08,550 --> 02:34:06,720
sensibility category okay man that's

3847
02:34:10,309 --> 02:34:08,560
working um and make sure when we get to

3848
02:34:11,750 --> 02:34:10,319
that uh if we haven't captured it

3849
02:34:13,429 --> 02:34:11,760
adequately

3850
02:34:15,670 --> 02:34:13,439
okay anything else

3851
02:34:19,429 --> 02:34:15,680
go ahead

3852
02:34:26,070 --> 02:34:22,389
two or three uh different presenters

3853
02:34:27,429 --> 02:34:26,080
talked about using microsats as a

3854
02:34:30,389 --> 02:34:27,439
probe

3855
02:34:33,349 --> 02:34:30,399
is that under sensing or

3856
02:34:35,110 --> 02:34:33,359
is that somewhere else because they

3857
02:34:36,230 --> 02:34:35,120
really referred them as

3858
02:34:39,110 --> 02:34:36,240
sensors

3859
02:34:40,230 --> 02:34:39,120
to know more about the target

3860
02:34:42,070 --> 02:34:40,240
uh

3861
02:34:43,510 --> 02:34:42,080
we had thought that like cubesats and

3862
02:34:47,590 --> 02:34:43,520
stuff we were putting it under mission

3863
02:34:50,150 --> 02:34:48,790
anything else and we'll go on to the

3864
02:34:52,710 --> 02:34:50,160
next category

3865
02:34:54,150 --> 02:34:52,720
sensing systems and algorithms

3866
02:34:55,750 --> 02:34:54,160
there's a wide range of sensor

3867
02:34:57,270 --> 02:34:55,760
technologies discussed for various

3868
02:34:58,790 --> 02:34:57,280
mission requirements

3869
02:35:02,630 --> 02:34:58,800
which includes characterization

3870
02:35:03,910 --> 02:35:02,640
rendezvous proximity operations capture

3871
02:35:06,550 --> 02:35:03,920
you know things to think about the

3872
02:35:08,550 --> 02:35:06,560
target size shape range temple dynamics

3873
02:35:10,469 --> 02:35:08,560
shape modeling

3874
02:35:13,110 --> 02:35:10,479
closed loop control with uncooperative

3875
02:35:14,309 --> 02:35:13,120
target tracking relative nav rate

3876
02:35:15,990 --> 02:35:14,319
matching

3877
02:35:17,990 --> 02:35:16,000
considerations for surface and

3878
02:35:20,710 --> 02:35:18,000
subsurface characterization

3879
02:35:22,710 --> 02:35:20,720
uh crater detection tracking asteroid

3880
02:35:25,750 --> 02:35:22,720
structural strength you know depending

3881
02:35:27,910 --> 02:35:25,760
on your your your mission scenario

3882
02:35:30,070 --> 02:35:27,920
sensor technologies include visible ir

3883
02:35:34,070 --> 02:35:30,080
camera lidar laser altimeter

3884
02:35:36,150 --> 02:35:34,080
spectrometry radar tomography and so on

3885
02:35:38,230 --> 02:35:36,160
we had discussions of integrated systems

3886
02:35:39,910 --> 02:35:38,240
and algorithm development and a lot of

3887
02:35:41,990 --> 02:35:39,920
hardware and software adaptation from

3888
02:35:49,030 --> 02:35:42,000
heritage systems and we listed a bunch

3889
02:35:49,040 --> 02:35:53,429
tell the section that heather

3890
02:35:53,439 --> 02:35:59,110
okay we'll go on

3891
02:36:04,150 --> 02:36:01,670
um then the other topic areas that we

3892
02:36:05,830 --> 02:36:04,160
had and then we need to try to think

3893
02:36:08,230 --> 02:36:05,840
about the different business strategies

3894
02:36:10,870 --> 02:36:08,240
one as well but mission enhancements uh

3895
02:36:13,590 --> 02:36:10,880
what we put under there uh was robotic

3896
02:36:15,670 --> 02:36:13,600
manipulators for enhanced asteroid

3897
02:36:17,910 --> 02:36:15,680
characterization dissimilar capture

3898
02:36:19,190 --> 02:36:17,920
techniques or an enabler for pick up a

3899
02:36:21,270 --> 02:36:19,200
rock scenario

3900
02:36:23,110 --> 02:36:21,280
a cubesat class observation and sensor

3901
02:36:26,070 --> 02:36:23,120
spacecraft

3902
02:36:28,150 --> 02:36:26,080
contact excursion probe surface samplers

3903
02:36:29,990 --> 02:36:28,160
and i'm not sure it really kind of got

3904
02:36:31,590 --> 02:36:30,000
talked about here but taking advantage

3905
02:36:34,389 --> 02:36:31,600
of about the three year transition to

3906
02:36:41,830 --> 02:36:34,399
cis lunar space to do further

3907
02:36:45,830 --> 02:36:43,670
okay that's pretty good

3908
02:36:47,830 --> 02:36:45,840
um

3909
02:36:48,710 --> 02:36:47,840
what's that

3910
02:36:50,389 --> 02:36:48,720
yeah

3911
02:36:52,710 --> 02:36:50,399
when you wear everybody out it's easier

3912
02:36:54,469 --> 02:36:52,720
to get through these sort of things

3913
02:36:56,710 --> 02:36:54,479
thank you for all the presenters

3914
02:36:58,389 --> 02:36:56,720
we really want to make sure that we

3915
02:37:00,790 --> 02:36:58,399
captured the mission enhancements that

3916
02:37:04,469 --> 02:37:00,800
were in the paper right so

3917
02:37:06,710 --> 02:37:04,479
if you don't see what you told us

3918
02:37:09,110 --> 02:37:06,720
but we'll go on um and and as need be

3919
02:37:10,710 --> 02:37:09,120
you know you you can contact me uh us

3920
02:37:12,630 --> 02:37:10,720
over the next day or two

3921
02:37:15,349 --> 02:37:12,640
as well as as we finalize this

3922
02:37:16,950 --> 02:37:15,359
extensibility was our next major topic

3923
02:37:18,870 --> 02:37:16,960
we talked about the similarity and needs

3924
02:37:21,110 --> 02:37:18,880
of satellite servicing missions

3925
02:37:23,110 --> 02:37:21,120
potential for commercial applications

3926
02:37:25,510 --> 02:37:23,120
potential reuse as a cargo tug for

3927
02:37:27,510 --> 02:37:25,520
translunar assets planetary defense

3928
02:37:29,349 --> 02:37:27,520
asteroid deflection demonstration space

3929
02:37:31,110 --> 02:37:29,359
debris removal i'm not sure everything

3930
02:37:33,190 --> 02:37:31,120
actually got talked here today as we as

3931
02:37:34,710 --> 02:37:33,200
much as we saw in some of the papers but

3932
02:37:36,309 --> 02:37:34,720
any comments to this section can you

3933
02:37:37,910 --> 02:37:36,319
list some examples of the potential

3934
02:37:39,990 --> 02:37:37,920
commercial applications so we don't lose

3935
02:37:42,309 --> 02:37:40,000
those thoughts um that's a good idea you

3936
02:37:43,910 --> 02:37:42,319
want to um

3937
02:37:46,790 --> 02:37:43,920
isru

3938
02:37:51,670 --> 02:37:46,800
yeah and then the fuel for satellites

3939
02:37:55,750 --> 02:37:54,230
well the maturation of the scp helps

3940
02:37:58,630 --> 02:37:55,760
geo-converge right

3941
02:38:00,469 --> 02:37:58,640
whether it's ppu quad junction cells

3942
02:38:02,469 --> 02:38:00,479
better deployables

3943
02:38:10,389 --> 02:38:02,479
the list goes on spin off and i don't

3944
02:38:10,399 --> 02:38:13,510
is it worth mentioning

3945
02:38:17,349 --> 02:38:16,309
the robotic planetary

3946
02:38:21,190 --> 02:38:17,359
there is an extensibility they're

3947
02:38:27,270 --> 02:38:23,510
robotic science mission

3948
02:38:30,070 --> 02:38:28,389
okay

3949
02:38:33,510 --> 02:38:30,080
uh i don't i didn't see it here but

3950
02:38:35,910 --> 02:38:33,520
under also under extensibility you know

3951
02:38:36,950 --> 02:38:35,920
if there are assets that are brought

3952
02:38:39,270 --> 02:38:36,960
back

3953
02:38:41,590 --> 02:38:39,280
um you know it's not just

3954
02:38:44,550 --> 02:38:41,600
human crude missions from

3955
02:38:46,389 --> 02:38:44,560
nasa that could go there you know other

3956
02:38:48,389 --> 02:38:46,399
nations could go there

3957
02:38:50,389 --> 02:38:48,399
um you know there are

3958
02:38:52,710 --> 02:38:50,399
you know industry could go there

3959
02:38:54,870 --> 02:38:52,720
in other words there's a

3960
02:38:56,870 --> 02:38:54,880
there's clearly some interest in

3961
02:38:58,710 --> 02:38:56,880
expanding the scope of what you do with

3962
02:39:00,309 --> 02:38:58,720
the results

3963
02:39:03,190 --> 02:39:00,319
okay

3964
02:39:05,190 --> 02:39:03,200
and there's also the trade space of do

3965
02:39:07,590 --> 02:39:05,200
you make this modular

3966
02:39:10,630 --> 02:39:07,600
which affects the extendability

3967
02:39:14,790 --> 02:39:10,640
or do you make it one piece and just

3968
02:39:17,590 --> 02:39:14,800
duplicate that for another mission later

3969
02:39:18,950 --> 02:39:17,600
yes did we well we tried to capture that

3970
02:39:20,469 --> 02:39:18,960
in alternate mission scenarios or

3971
02:39:21,510 --> 02:39:20,479
concept really under concept of

3972
02:39:23,910 --> 02:39:21,520
operations

3973
02:39:25,349 --> 02:39:23,920
the last does that get at your point but

3974
02:39:29,349 --> 02:39:25,359
you didn't really say anything about

3975
02:39:34,550 --> 02:39:31,429
do you think it works okay as a concept

3976
02:39:38,469 --> 02:39:34,560
of operations if we add you know into it

3977
02:39:39,349 --> 02:39:38,479
it touched on testing it it tests

3978
02:39:42,309 --> 02:39:39,359
on

3979
02:39:44,150 --> 02:39:42,319
extendability lots of places okay

3980
02:39:47,670 --> 02:39:44,160
all right

3981
02:39:49,030 --> 02:39:47,680
extending on uh the sap comment earlier

3982
02:39:51,110 --> 02:39:49,040
uh you know

3983
02:39:52,950 --> 02:39:51,120
the sap that we're

3984
02:39:55,110 --> 02:39:52,960
trying to push here does an awful lot

3985
02:39:58,710 --> 02:39:55,120
not just for

3986
02:40:01,670 --> 02:39:58,720
advancing the cause for geocom birds but

3987
02:40:04,710 --> 02:40:01,680
for doing things like deep space

3988
02:40:06,550 --> 02:40:04,720
space orbital debris

3989
02:40:09,110 --> 02:40:06,560
satellite servicing

3990
02:40:10,630 --> 02:40:09,120
uh human exploration you know deep space

3991
02:40:13,750 --> 02:40:10,640
human exploration i mean that was one of

3992
02:40:15,349 --> 02:40:13,760
our initial motivations for sdmd doing

3993
02:40:16,630 --> 02:40:15,359
these technology advancements in the

3994
02:40:18,230 --> 02:40:16,640
first place and

3995
02:40:20,710 --> 02:40:18,240
i think we got to make sure we captured

3996
02:40:21,990 --> 02:40:20,720
that yes some of those i felt i thought

3997
02:40:23,990 --> 02:40:22,000
that we were trying to capture with

3998
02:40:26,309 --> 02:40:24,000
these yeah but you kind of you don't i i

3999
02:40:27,830 --> 02:40:26,319
guess what i would do is put under

4000
02:40:31,190 --> 02:40:27,840
extensibility

4001
02:40:33,110 --> 02:40:31,200
scp specific ah okay spell out sap

4002
02:40:34,870 --> 02:40:33,120
specifically yeah okay and because a lot

4003
02:40:36,870 --> 02:40:34,880
of these are connected to us right but

4004
02:40:40,870 --> 02:40:36,880
you're not making the point yep i got it

4005
02:40:44,389 --> 02:40:42,469
well i guess if we're going to talk

4006
02:40:46,469 --> 02:40:44,399
about about that those sorts of

4007
02:40:49,269 --> 02:40:46,479
specifics right if we develop advanced

4008
02:40:50,870 --> 02:40:49,279
robotics for this those robotics

4009
02:40:52,630 --> 02:40:50,880
with humans involved and work in

4010
02:40:55,510 --> 02:40:52,640
conjunction with dba

4011
02:40:59,349 --> 02:40:55,520
right assembly of large observatories

4012
02:41:02,790 --> 02:40:59,359
um assembly of a mars excursion vehicle

4013
02:41:06,309 --> 02:41:04,550
the expansion of humans into the solar

4014
02:41:09,110 --> 02:41:06,319
system with robotics and humans working

4015
02:41:12,230 --> 02:41:10,309
okay

4016
02:41:13,750 --> 02:41:12,240
all right just because when most people

4017
02:41:15,429 --> 02:41:13,760
see satellite servicing they think

4018
02:41:17,910 --> 02:41:15,439
fixing things that are already existing

4019
02:41:20,230 --> 02:41:17,920
there as opposed to building new things

4020
02:41:21,510 --> 02:41:20,240
that can't be built without it

4021
02:41:24,710 --> 02:41:21,520
okay

4022
02:41:30,230 --> 02:41:26,790
james mentioned that the leftover

4023
02:41:31,830 --> 02:41:30,240
material would have value to industry it

4024
02:41:34,230 --> 02:41:31,840
would have much more value to industry

4025
02:41:35,670 --> 02:41:34,240
if it had some say in which rock was

4026
02:41:37,830 --> 02:41:35,680
brought back

4027
02:41:39,590 --> 02:41:37,840
the any rock will do approach

4028
02:41:43,269 --> 02:41:39,600
doesn't guarantee you really that you'll

4029
02:41:44,790 --> 02:41:43,279
have an industrial useful resource

4030
02:41:47,429 --> 02:41:44,800
left over after the

4031
02:41:49,510 --> 02:41:47,439
orion mission okay

4032
02:41:50,870 --> 02:41:49,520
there was a point made earlier that you

4033
02:41:52,550 --> 02:41:50,880
know big rocks are easier to find than

4034
02:41:53,590 --> 02:41:52,560
small rocks

4035
02:41:55,429 --> 02:41:53,600
and that's of course because of the

4036
02:41:56,790 --> 02:41:55,439
inverse square law but what wasn't

4037
02:41:59,269 --> 02:41:56,800
mentioned is that the slope of the

4038
02:42:01,030 --> 02:41:59,279
population curve is minus 2.6 and

4039
02:42:03,670 --> 02:42:01,040
therefore you actually find much more

4040
02:42:05,110 --> 02:42:03,680
small objects than large objects and

4041
02:42:07,510 --> 02:42:05,120
furthermore because of the fourth power

4042
02:42:09,750 --> 02:42:07,520
radar law they're much much more likely

4043
02:42:12,550 --> 02:42:09,760
to be in the radar you know within range

4044
02:42:14,550 --> 02:42:12,560
of our radar systems are sibo and

4045
02:42:16,469 --> 02:42:14,560
goldstone and so

4046
02:42:18,870 --> 02:42:16,479
if you go out just looking for these

4047
02:42:21,110 --> 02:42:18,880
objects you're they're overwhelmingly

4048
02:42:22,469 --> 02:42:21,120
going to find the smaller objects and

4049
02:42:24,870 --> 02:42:22,479
you're going to be able to characterize

4050
02:42:27,269 --> 02:42:24,880
the smaller objects preferentially to

4051
02:42:28,550 --> 02:42:27,279
the larger objects

4052
02:42:30,469 --> 02:42:28,560
okay

4053
02:42:32,790 --> 02:42:30,479
i'm not sure yet how to capture that in

4054
02:42:34,070 --> 02:42:32,800
this thought process but but we'll make

4055
02:42:36,389 --> 02:42:34,080
a note

4056
02:42:39,190 --> 02:42:36,399
okay that would be very helpful

4057
02:42:40,630 --> 02:42:39,200
all right oh just one i guess we didn't

4058
02:42:43,030 --> 02:42:40,640
it was only talked about briefly but in

4059
02:42:44,469 --> 02:42:43,040
terms of extensibility um you have a lot

4060
02:42:46,230 --> 02:42:44,479
of capability up here but you don't talk

4061
02:42:48,070 --> 02:42:46,240
at all about any science capability you

4062
02:42:49,670 --> 02:42:48,080
could imagine using this uh in some

4063
02:42:51,269 --> 02:42:49,680
fashion to do something really

4064
02:42:53,269 --> 02:42:51,279
interesting in terms of bringing a

4065
02:42:55,910 --> 02:42:53,279
telescope to l1 or l2 or something like

4066
02:42:57,590 --> 02:42:55,920
that you could there's a science

4067
02:42:59,190 --> 02:42:57,600
potential here oh that i think you're

4068
02:43:00,870 --> 02:42:59,200
not capturing with developing this kind

4069
02:43:02,309 --> 02:43:00,880
of technology yeah if you want to if you

4070
02:43:03,750 --> 02:43:02,319
want to move something very big to an

4071
02:43:05,349 --> 02:43:03,760
interesting place you have a possibility

4072
02:43:06,790 --> 02:43:05,359
of doing that oh okay so it comes back

4073
02:43:07,990 --> 02:43:06,800
to the like the accept question

4074
02:43:09,830 --> 02:43:08,000
especially

4075
02:43:12,070 --> 02:43:09,840
and it's not just for these sort of

4076
02:43:13,910 --> 02:43:12,080
things but even as a science potential

4077
02:43:15,190 --> 02:43:13,920
for moving things around

4078
02:43:16,950 --> 02:43:15,200
yeah i mean i i don't know what that

4079
02:43:18,550 --> 02:43:16,960
would be but you know we could be

4080
02:43:20,550 --> 02:43:18,560
ambitious right so

4081
02:43:22,950 --> 02:43:20,560
okay thank you anything else in this

4082
02:43:24,469 --> 02:43:22,960
category oh yeah so i have sort of a

4083
02:43:27,349 --> 02:43:24,479
more general question i'm wondering if

4084
02:43:28,790 --> 02:43:27,359
it's within the scope of this uh uh

4085
02:43:30,469 --> 02:43:28,800
summary to try and place some

4086
02:43:32,309 --> 02:43:30,479
prioritization

4087
02:43:33,990 --> 02:43:32,319
on this long list

4088
02:43:36,550 --> 02:43:34,000
that has consensus of this group or

4089
02:43:38,710 --> 02:43:36,560
whether we're just trying to report on

4090
02:43:40,550 --> 02:43:38,720
everything that was covered i'm not sure

4091
02:43:43,110 --> 02:43:40,560
if that is beyond what we're supposed to

4092
02:43:45,429 --> 02:43:43,120
do my guess is is we probably won't get

4093
02:43:47,349 --> 02:43:45,439
there in the next 15 minutes

4094
02:43:48,710 --> 02:43:47,359
um you know it's a good thought and

4095
02:43:50,230 --> 02:43:48,720
maybe what we can do in terms of the

4096
02:43:51,510 --> 02:43:50,240
findings is one of the things you do is

4097
02:43:53,269 --> 02:43:51,520
you take this list and start going

4098
02:43:55,269 --> 02:43:53,279
through a prioritization activity that

4099
02:43:57,349 --> 02:43:55,279
might be the how we can fit it in as as

4100
02:43:59,110 --> 02:43:57,359
part of our you know next steps that

4101
02:44:01,349 --> 02:43:59,120
kind of stuff is we've got a lot of good

4102
02:44:02,230 --> 02:44:01,359
ideas but but one of the next steps is

4103
02:44:03,670 --> 02:44:02,240
to

4104
02:44:05,750 --> 02:44:03,680
sort out which ones

4105
02:44:07,429 --> 02:44:05,760
hey jim yeah i think the way that we

4106
02:44:08,950 --> 02:44:07,439
should handle that i mean i don't

4107
02:44:11,110 --> 02:44:08,960
disagree with it at all i think we need

4108
02:44:13,030 --> 02:44:11,120
to yeah think about that but i think

4109
02:44:15,429 --> 02:44:13,040
that that should be a discussion that we

4110
02:44:19,190 --> 02:44:15,439
have with the wider group sort of the on

4111
02:44:21,750 --> 02:44:19,200
the on wednesday we're all still here um

4112
02:44:23,670 --> 02:44:21,760
that that we could all say well where's

4113
02:44:25,190 --> 02:44:23,680
what is the next step moving forward i

4114
02:44:26,950 --> 02:44:25,200
mean we're not going to just take all

4115
02:44:28,790 --> 02:44:26,960
this data and then send everybody away

4116
02:44:30,550 --> 02:44:28,800
and say okay we're done right i mean

4117
02:44:33,269 --> 02:44:30,560
nasa is going to definitely interact

4118
02:44:35,990 --> 02:44:33,279
with the participants here going forward

4119
02:44:37,429 --> 02:44:36,000
and but we need to establish you know

4120
02:44:38,630 --> 02:44:37,439
what we should do and how we should do

4121
02:44:40,070 --> 02:44:38,640
it and i think that's something that we

4122
02:44:41,110 --> 02:44:40,080
should bring up as a topic for

4123
02:44:42,630 --> 02:44:41,120
discussion

4124
02:44:44,389 --> 02:44:42,640
uh with the

4125
02:44:45,510 --> 02:44:44,399
the broader audience you know we had

4126
02:44:49,190 --> 02:44:45,520
some other

4127
02:44:51,590 --> 02:44:49,200
uh panels that broke off here uh as you

4128
02:44:54,309 --> 02:44:51,600
know apart from us here today

4129
02:44:56,469 --> 02:44:54,319
uh in the parallel sessions and i'm sure

4130
02:44:57,830 --> 02:44:56,479
they brought up the same point yeah okay

4131
02:45:00,790 --> 02:44:57,840
that's a good point

4132
02:45:02,070 --> 02:45:00,800
we'll figure out how to do that

4133
02:45:04,630 --> 02:45:02,080
so we go on to alternate mission

4134
02:45:06,710 --> 02:45:04,640
scenarios concept of operations we kind

4135
02:45:08,790 --> 02:45:06,720
of had the the

4136
02:45:10,950 --> 02:45:08,800
various you know got introduced very

4137
02:45:12,070 --> 02:45:10,960
quickly on to some of the options that

4138
02:45:13,830 --> 02:45:12,080
were out there

4139
02:45:16,550 --> 02:45:13,840
uh the benefits of obtaining multiple

4140
02:45:19,510 --> 02:45:16,560
samples from the robopile asteroid many

4141
02:45:21,590 --> 02:45:19,520
moons um good discussion on many moons

4142
02:45:23,269 --> 02:45:21,600
and the alternatives there and in terms

4143
02:45:25,670 --> 02:45:23,279
of concept of operation a separate

4144
02:45:28,389 --> 02:45:25,680
transporter and capture vehicles

4145
02:45:30,870 --> 02:45:28,399
and trying to factor in modularity um

4146
02:45:33,510 --> 02:45:30,880
comments on this section so as brought

4147
02:45:37,349 --> 02:45:33,520
up earlier the big one is do we do

4148
02:45:38,870 --> 02:45:37,359
precursors or cursors yes right

4149
02:45:40,790 --> 02:45:38,880
or do you

4150
02:45:42,790 --> 02:45:40,800
you know sort of a modification to that

4151
02:45:45,590 --> 02:45:42,800
is do you do a campaign where you go to

4152
02:45:48,309 --> 02:45:45,600
more than one asteroid you know a small

4153
02:45:49,750 --> 02:45:48,319
one and a big one or some combination

4154
02:45:51,110 --> 02:45:49,760
thereof

4155
02:45:52,469 --> 02:45:51,120
um

4156
02:45:54,710 --> 02:45:52,479
okay

4157
02:45:57,750 --> 02:45:54,720
or do you or do you

4158
02:46:00,870 --> 02:45:57,760
use your combination of assets to do

4159
02:46:02,630 --> 02:46:00,880
grab you know a combination of you know

4160
02:46:04,630 --> 02:46:02,640
regolith and

4161
02:46:06,550 --> 02:46:04,640
there's there's a whole

4162
02:46:07,750 --> 02:46:06,560
different approach

4163
02:46:10,790 --> 02:46:07,760
okay

4164
02:46:12,950 --> 02:46:10,800
i'll expand on that one uh so originally

4165
02:46:14,950 --> 02:46:12,960
when john did the first the kick study

4166
02:46:16,230 --> 02:46:14,960
there was a longer period between launch

4167
02:46:18,150 --> 02:46:16,240
and retrieving they had a little more

4168
02:46:20,389 --> 02:46:18,160
time which opened up more targets and

4169
02:46:22,630 --> 02:46:20,399
things like that uh then when we brought

4170
02:46:25,190 --> 02:46:22,640
it into nasa we focused on you know

4171
02:46:26,550 --> 02:46:25,200
meeting certain milestones uh doing it

4172
02:46:28,389 --> 02:46:26,560
all ourselves without working with

4173
02:46:30,070 --> 02:46:28,399
industry to fund it so you know if you

4174
02:46:31,269 --> 02:46:30,080
have these industry partnerships that

4175
02:46:33,190 --> 02:46:31,279
we're talking about where maybe they

4176
02:46:35,750 --> 02:46:33,200
would fund a precursor

4177
02:46:38,710 --> 02:46:35,760
and maybe our particular

4178
02:46:39,990 --> 02:46:38,720
return date wouldn't be 2023 or 2024 it

4179
02:46:41,510 --> 02:46:40,000
might be a little bit out it might open

4180
02:46:43,269 --> 02:46:41,520
up a greater opportunity to leverage

4181
02:46:45,110 --> 02:46:43,279
what james just said do we have a better

4182
02:46:46,550 --> 02:46:45,120
campaign perspective can we partner with

4183
02:46:47,269 --> 02:46:46,560
industry to make this better for all of

4184
02:46:50,790 --> 02:46:47,279
us

4185
02:46:50,800 --> 02:46:55,349
yes yes

4186
02:46:58,870 --> 02:46:57,349
okay good oh okay just in terms of

4187
02:47:00,950 --> 02:46:58,880
precursors i want to expand this

4188
02:47:02,389 --> 02:47:00,960
discussion a little bit and that um i

4189
02:47:04,070 --> 02:47:02,399
know everyone's talking about the tight

4190
02:47:05,590 --> 02:47:04,080
timing and the rest but really one of

4191
02:47:07,670 --> 02:47:05,600
the most important precursors you could

4192
02:47:09,590 --> 02:47:07,680
do is do a survey that looks for near

4193
02:47:11,110 --> 02:47:09,600
earth objects right so here you can span

4194
02:47:12,309 --> 02:47:11,120
the number of objects we had and then

4195
02:47:13,510 --> 02:47:12,319
you have many more options you don't

4196
02:47:16,230 --> 02:47:13,520
know what options we have right now

4197
02:47:17,990 --> 02:47:16,240
right now we have very very few

4198
02:47:19,510 --> 02:47:18,000
options in terms of mission targets and

4199
02:47:21,030 --> 02:47:19,520
the rest and i think that could limit

4200
02:47:22,710 --> 02:47:21,040
that could be the show stopper right so

4201
02:47:24,230 --> 02:47:22,720
you want to avoid the show stoppers so

4202
02:47:26,630 --> 02:47:24,240
that's something i think nasa strongly

4203
02:47:33,110 --> 02:47:26,640
has to consider is some kind of space

4204
02:47:37,750 --> 02:47:35,269
so listening to the talks i sensed a lot

4205
02:47:40,469 --> 02:47:37,760
of interest in resources

4206
02:47:42,469 --> 02:47:40,479
and isru as a driver

4207
02:47:43,750 --> 02:47:42,479
and perhaps that's a way of answering

4208
02:47:46,389 --> 02:47:43,760
the why

4209
02:47:47,750 --> 02:47:46,399
and so a lot of commercial interest

4210
02:47:49,030 --> 02:47:47,760
on

4211
02:47:51,670 --> 02:47:49,040
what you do

4212
02:47:54,070 --> 02:47:51,680
with the asteroid and what is its

4213
02:47:56,309 --> 02:47:54,080
ultimate purpose and i think isru

4214
02:48:03,190 --> 02:47:56,319
should be captured as a potential driver

4215
02:48:08,870 --> 02:48:06,150
i have one comment under extensibility

4216
02:48:10,309 --> 02:48:08,880
if we for example pick up a rock from a

4217
02:48:11,990 --> 02:48:10,319
larger rock

4218
02:48:13,190 --> 02:48:12,000
is the question of should we leave

4219
02:48:15,670 --> 02:48:13,200
something

4220
02:48:18,630 --> 02:48:15,680
behind on the rock the big rock that we

4221
02:48:20,630 --> 02:48:18,640
took the little rock from

4222
02:48:26,550 --> 02:48:20,640
beacon or

4223
02:48:26,560 --> 02:48:30,309
okay thank you

4224
02:48:33,830 --> 02:48:32,230
anything else

4225
02:48:36,710 --> 02:48:33,840
the the other category that was

4226
02:48:39,429 --> 02:48:36,720
suggested that uh in addition to these

4227
02:48:47,670 --> 02:48:39,439
five was different business strategies

4228
02:48:53,269 --> 02:48:49,830
okay

4229
02:48:58,790 --> 02:48:56,630
um now this one's the harder one

4230
02:49:00,710 --> 02:48:58,800
we did the easy one and and this one we

4231
02:49:03,110 --> 02:49:00,720
we struggled with ourselves too so you

4232
02:49:04,950 --> 02:49:03,120
know even more than than summarizing

4233
02:49:06,870 --> 02:49:04,960
what was in the papers is what what are

4234
02:49:08,950 --> 02:49:06,880
findings relative to this initiative

4235
02:49:10,469 --> 02:49:08,960
planning and honestly like i said this

4236
02:49:13,110 --> 02:49:10,479
area in particular we didn't have quite

4237
02:49:15,349 --> 02:49:13,120
the guidance that we do now so but but

4238
02:49:16,550 --> 02:49:15,359
anyways i'll just talk through it and

4239
02:49:18,070 --> 02:49:16,560
the things that we would think would be

4240
02:49:19,750 --> 02:49:18,080
next steps is i think what this is

4241
02:49:21,990 --> 02:49:19,760
really more ordered around

4242
02:49:23,590 --> 02:49:22,000
um

4243
02:49:25,190 --> 02:49:23,600
establish a concise set of mission

4244
02:49:27,510 --> 02:49:25,200
objectives and figures of merit that

4245
02:49:29,269 --> 02:49:27,520
includes extensibility commercialization

4246
02:49:30,870 --> 02:49:29,279
considerations

4247
02:49:31,830 --> 02:49:30,880
perform an assessment of various mission

4248
02:49:33,990 --> 02:49:31,840
concept

4249
02:49:35,990 --> 02:49:34,000
options against these farms including

4250
02:49:38,790 --> 02:49:36,000
weighing technology approach and mission

4251
02:49:40,469 --> 02:49:38,800
enhancement options in doing so

4252
02:49:42,150 --> 02:49:40,479
focus the risk reduction activities

4253
02:49:44,230 --> 02:49:42,160
consistent with the mission concept

4254
02:49:47,590 --> 02:49:44,240
approach and leveraging the inputs and

4255
02:49:49,110 --> 02:49:47,600
consider a follow on our arm workshop

4256
02:49:50,790 --> 02:49:49,120
for sensor technologies that would

4257
02:49:53,670 --> 02:49:50,800
address the potential for integrated

4258
02:49:55,429 --> 02:49:53,680
sensing system that is able to support

4259
02:49:57,590 --> 02:49:55,439
all mission phases and broader nasa

4260
02:49:58,469 --> 02:49:57,600
exploration needs and and like i say we

4261
02:50:00,230 --> 02:49:58,479
really

4262
02:50:02,070 --> 02:50:00,240
you know this was a much more difficult

4263
02:50:03,510 --> 02:50:02,080
thing for us to do when we were talking

4264
02:50:05,190 --> 02:50:03,520
it but

4265
02:50:06,830 --> 02:50:05,200
this is what we have right now we'll

4266
02:50:09,910 --> 02:50:06,840
open the floor

4267
02:50:12,550 --> 02:50:09,920
thoughts just one comment the top one

4268
02:50:14,070 --> 02:50:12,560
would address the cost versus uh

4269
02:50:16,550 --> 02:50:14,080
objectives issue

4270
02:50:18,230 --> 02:50:16,560
some of the launch vehicle issues uh one

4271
02:50:20,469 --> 02:50:18,240
of the launch options could take the

4272
02:50:22,389 --> 02:50:20,479
entire budget and have nothing to launch

4273
02:50:24,630 --> 02:50:22,399
so that would be very helpful to

4274
02:50:29,110 --> 02:50:24,640
understand how much is actually being

4275
02:50:29,120 --> 02:50:41,590
anything else

4276
02:50:44,070 --> 02:50:42,309
uh

4277
02:50:45,910 --> 02:50:44,080
just looking at this list one thing i

4278
02:50:47,030 --> 02:50:45,920
think which could be done i think which

4279
02:50:47,750 --> 02:50:47,040
i'll put a different way which should be

4280
02:50:50,230 --> 02:50:47,760
done

4281
02:50:51,830 --> 02:50:50,240
is more incorporation of the small body

4282
02:50:53,269 --> 02:50:51,840
science community into all these

4283
02:50:54,630 --> 02:50:53,279
discussions

4284
02:50:56,150 --> 02:50:54,640
for some reason they're not being

4285
02:50:58,630 --> 02:50:56,160
included in any great degree or not

4286
02:51:00,309 --> 02:50:58,640
being invited and yet they have almost

4287
02:51:02,230 --> 02:51:00,319
all the expertise that exists on these

4288
02:51:04,550 --> 02:51:02,240
objects so i think we need to have

4289
02:51:06,469 --> 02:51:04,560
nasa sponsored workshops to discuss

4290
02:51:12,150 --> 02:51:06,479
these things

4291
02:51:16,870 --> 02:51:14,630
well until i heard deep space industries

4292
02:51:18,870 --> 02:51:16,880
talk i would have argued against more is

4293
02:51:20,230 --> 02:51:18,880
better

4294
02:51:22,630 --> 02:51:20,240
but if you guys are going to make fuel

4295
02:51:24,150 --> 02:51:22,640
out of it maybe more is better we are in

4296
02:51:25,110 --> 02:51:24,160
america anyway

4297
02:51:26,630 --> 02:51:25,120
um

4298
02:51:27,670 --> 02:51:26,640
that is our general approach to

4299
02:51:30,150 --> 02:51:27,680
everything

4300
02:51:31,510 --> 02:51:30,160
um but is is enough enough

4301
02:51:33,590 --> 02:51:31,520
i mean if a figure of merit is going to

4302
02:51:35,830 --> 02:51:33,600
be how much mass we bring back that may

4303
02:51:37,510 --> 02:51:35,840
drive a lot of decisions then

4304
02:51:39,590 --> 02:51:37,520
is one ton enough

4305
02:51:41,349 --> 02:51:39,600
if one ton is enough that may mean we

4306
02:51:42,630 --> 02:51:41,359
spend our money elsewhere in the system

4307
02:51:44,469 --> 02:51:42,640
rather than

4308
02:51:47,269 --> 02:51:44,479
you know you know are these guys going

4309
02:51:48,710 --> 02:51:47,279
to build a 15 meter bag or a 10 meter

4310
02:51:51,510 --> 02:51:48,720
bag

4311
02:51:53,830 --> 02:51:51,520
right so

4312
02:51:55,990 --> 02:51:53,840
is more always better if it ends up

4313
02:51:58,070 --> 02:51:56,000
killing the mission because we

4314
02:52:00,550 --> 02:51:58,080
we get ground into the ground on being

4315
02:52:01,990 --> 02:52:00,560
able to get that much then maybe

4316
02:52:05,269 --> 02:52:02,000
maybe we could pick a number that was

4317
02:52:07,590 --> 02:52:05,279
reasonable and that it just isn't uh

4318
02:52:09,190 --> 02:52:07,600
all right that's enough i think the top

4319
02:52:12,309 --> 02:52:09,200
figure of merit should be can you

4320
02:52:15,510 --> 02:52:12,319
sustain this activity

4321
02:52:17,349 --> 02:52:15,520
doing it once is not very interesting

4322
02:52:19,670 --> 02:52:17,359
so that should be the figure of merit is

4323
02:52:21,510 --> 02:52:19,680
it can you continue doing it

4324
02:52:23,670 --> 02:52:21,520
that would argue that the more comes in

4325
02:52:25,269 --> 02:52:23,680
the continuation than the repeatability

4326
02:52:26,790 --> 02:52:25,279
rather in the size of the initial

4327
02:52:28,550 --> 02:52:26,800
mission well then we're talking about

4328
02:52:29,990 --> 02:52:28,560
transferring of the technology to

4329
02:52:32,070 --> 02:52:30,000
private industry who wants to do it

4330
02:52:33,590 --> 02:52:32,080
again and again because

4331
02:52:35,750 --> 02:52:33,600
other than the scientists coming back

4332
02:52:37,750 --> 02:52:35,760
arguing that we need to do it again i

4333
02:52:38,870 --> 02:52:37,760
think this community's only signed up

4334
02:52:40,630 --> 02:52:38,880
for one

4335
02:52:42,630 --> 02:52:40,640
right

4336
02:52:44,950 --> 02:52:42,640
but i don't speak you want to spend that

4337
02:52:46,309 --> 02:52:44,960
much money to do it go ahead

4338
02:52:47,830 --> 02:52:46,319
please do well but it's not just that

4339
02:52:50,309 --> 02:52:47,840
we're spending the money to do lots of

4340
02:52:52,469 --> 02:52:50,319
other things develop the technology

4341
02:52:54,389 --> 02:52:52,479
practice evas do longer distances et

4342
02:52:56,950 --> 02:52:54,399
cetera et cetera so it's not just

4343
02:52:58,790 --> 02:52:56,960
spending all the money for one ton it's

4344
02:52:59,830 --> 02:52:58,800
for all the other things in addition so

4345
02:53:03,429 --> 02:52:59,840
as long as we can transfer the

4346
02:53:04,309 --> 02:53:03,439
technology to you does that satisfy the

4347
02:53:05,910 --> 02:53:04,319
the

4348
02:53:08,870 --> 02:53:05,920
continual stream of getting more and

4349
02:53:13,269 --> 02:53:11,269
what you decide to develop

4350
02:53:14,630 --> 02:53:13,279
if it's only done according to your

4351
02:53:16,870 --> 02:53:14,640
figures of merit

4352
02:53:19,110 --> 02:53:16,880
because you're the only one

4353
02:53:20,550 --> 02:53:19,120
making decisions about the system

4354
02:53:23,269 --> 02:53:20,560
means that the technology that gets

4355
02:53:25,830 --> 02:53:23,279
developed may not be applicable or

4356
02:53:28,389 --> 02:53:25,840
useful to the private sector so

4357
02:53:30,070 --> 02:53:28,399
that's why a cots like approach

4358
02:53:32,070 --> 02:53:30,080
you know where nasa said we want this

4359
02:53:34,070 --> 02:53:32,080
many tons delivered to the space station

4360
02:53:35,670 --> 02:53:34,080
what else you do with the dragon system

4361
02:53:37,429 --> 02:53:35,680
is up to you if you're going to sell it

4362
02:53:38,710 --> 02:53:37,439
back to us that's a different story

4363
02:53:40,469 --> 02:53:38,720
right if you're going to sell back to us

4364
02:53:42,870 --> 02:53:40,479
now we help ourselves by bringing more

4365
02:53:44,950 --> 02:53:42,880
to sis luna's face

4366
02:53:47,110 --> 02:53:44,960
mark did you want to add something well

4367
02:53:49,349 --> 02:53:47,120
i was just going to try to help heather

4368
02:53:51,510 --> 02:53:49,359
turned around and cued me there's more

4369
02:53:53,670 --> 02:53:51,520
than one aspect to extensibility there's

4370
02:53:54,469 --> 02:53:53,680
extensibility of using the asteroid more

4371
02:53:56,710 --> 02:53:54,479
per

4372
02:53:58,309 --> 02:53:56,720
industry things there's extensibility of

4373
02:54:00,230 --> 02:53:58,319
using the technology

4374
02:54:02,230 --> 02:54:00,240
but there's also extensibility that

4375
02:54:04,389 --> 02:54:02,240
steve stitch will talk about in the crew

4376
02:54:06,230 --> 02:54:04,399
session tomorrow of using these

4377
02:54:08,790 --> 02:54:06,240
technologies and systems to accomplish

4378
02:54:10,230 --> 02:54:08,800
missions beyond this lunar missions mars

4379
02:54:11,030 --> 02:54:10,240
missions other things

4380
02:54:13,110 --> 02:54:11,040
so

4381
02:54:14,630 --> 02:54:13,120
the broader nasa team that that is

4382
02:54:16,630 --> 02:54:14,640
working this is looking at it from

4383
02:54:18,950 --> 02:54:16,640
multiple points of view so

4384
02:54:21,510 --> 02:54:18,960
to be fair this session is on the

4385
02:54:24,309 --> 02:54:21,520
redirect correct

4386
02:54:25,990 --> 02:54:24,319
yes so that's that's the form when we

4387
02:54:28,309 --> 02:54:26,000
talk about extensibility we're talking

4388
02:54:30,630 --> 02:54:28,319
about extensibility of those elements

4389
02:54:31,910 --> 02:54:30,640
correct and that's that's james is right

4390
02:54:34,389 --> 02:54:31,920
that's exactly what i was going to say

4391
02:54:36,389 --> 02:54:34,399
is in this session you focus on those

4392
02:54:37,990 --> 02:54:36,399
asteroid pieces but in other sessions

4393
02:54:39,670 --> 02:54:38,000
the broader nasa team is considering

4394
02:54:41,190 --> 02:54:39,680
other aspects although the selection

4395
02:54:42,630 --> 02:54:41,200
material might

4396
02:54:44,309 --> 02:54:42,640
you know might

4397
02:54:46,150 --> 02:54:44,319
hinder or help

4398
02:54:49,269 --> 02:54:46,160
the future missions

4399
02:54:51,750 --> 02:54:49,279
so there is

4400
02:54:54,309 --> 02:54:51,760
as you address your figures of merit you

4401
02:54:55,990 --> 02:54:54,319
want to look at is there a potential

4402
02:54:57,830 --> 02:54:56,000
follow-on use to this does someone pick

4403
02:54:59,590 --> 02:54:57,840
up this technology and make it available

4404
02:55:00,309 --> 02:54:59,600
to us 10 years later when we next need

4405
02:55:06,150 --> 02:55:00,319
it

4406
02:55:08,469 --> 02:55:06,160
we developed a lot of technology that

4407
02:55:10,070 --> 02:55:08,479
doesn't help us follow on so having that

4408
02:55:11,990 --> 02:55:10,080
transition into the commercial sector

4409
02:55:13,429 --> 02:55:12,000
when we're doing that right now in the

4410
02:55:14,790 --> 02:55:13,439
on the science side we've been building

4411
02:55:17,349 --> 02:55:14,800
a lot of technology for the last 10

4412
02:55:18,950 --> 02:55:17,359
years and if we can't get it to the

4413
02:55:20,550 --> 02:55:18,960
commercial industry

4414
02:55:22,150 --> 02:55:20,560
to sustain it we can't sustain it

4415
02:55:24,550 --> 02:55:22,160
anymore so we're abandoning technology

4416
02:55:26,070 --> 02:55:24,560
that we've been building for a while

4417
02:55:27,349 --> 02:55:26,080
because we haven't thought through the

4418
02:55:28,630 --> 02:55:27,359
what's next

4419
02:55:31,429 --> 02:55:28,640
and didn't have a way to hand it off

4420
02:55:32,550 --> 02:55:31,439
there's two points that i guess i was

4421
02:55:34,070 --> 02:55:32,560
going to bring up

4422
02:55:38,150 --> 02:55:34,080
an example

4423
02:55:40,710 --> 02:55:38,160
of why you need to actually have some

4424
02:55:43,110 --> 02:55:40,720
discussion along this line of

4425
02:55:45,990 --> 02:55:43,120
of technology is even within sub

4426
02:55:48,630 --> 02:55:46,000
technologies sap technologies and let's

4427
02:55:50,309 --> 02:55:48,640
say that we all agree that well we're

4428
02:55:52,230 --> 02:55:50,319
probably going to go down the hall

4429
02:55:53,590 --> 02:55:52,240
thruster route just because that's the

4430
02:55:55,190 --> 02:55:53,600
most mature

4431
02:55:56,870 --> 02:55:55,200
and that we could bring online to do

4432
02:55:58,870 --> 02:55:56,880
this kind of mission in this timeframe

4433
02:56:01,190 --> 02:55:58,880
even if you got consensus about that

4434
02:56:03,349 --> 02:56:01,200
which you wouldn't

4435
02:56:04,230 --> 02:56:03,359
the fact of the matter is if

4436
02:56:12,150 --> 02:56:04,240
the

4437
02:56:15,110 --> 02:56:12,160
goes with 12.5

4438
02:56:17,269 --> 02:56:15,120
kilowatt individual thrusters

4439
02:56:19,750 --> 02:56:17,279
the geocom community would say those are

4440
02:56:22,309 --> 02:56:19,760
useless for our needs they don't want

4441
02:56:24,389 --> 02:56:22,319
that larger thruster so

4442
02:56:26,469 --> 02:56:24,399
transferring technology

4443
02:56:28,950 --> 02:56:26,479
is very dependent on

4444
02:56:30,950 --> 02:56:28,960
what the rest of the community wants and

4445
02:56:33,510 --> 02:56:30,960
we need to make we need to make a point

4446
02:56:35,269 --> 02:56:33,520
that that that has to be discussed and

4447
02:56:36,950 --> 02:56:35,279
acknowledged in some way so that's the

4448
02:56:39,030 --> 02:56:36,960
first point that i wanted to make and i

4449
02:56:40,710 --> 02:56:39,040
think we should try to capture it within

4450
02:56:42,950 --> 02:56:40,720
this this type of discussion that you're

4451
02:56:45,349 --> 02:56:42,960
bringing up on findings

4452
02:56:46,150 --> 02:56:45,359
the second goes back to

4453
02:56:48,950 --> 02:56:46,160
uh

4454
02:56:51,190 --> 02:56:48,960
how we're dealing with

4455
02:56:52,830 --> 02:56:51,200
the business case because the entire

4456
02:56:56,070 --> 02:56:52,840
discussion that you just

4457
02:56:58,150 --> 02:56:56,080
heard cots versus well the government

4458
02:57:00,630 --> 02:56:58,160
goes and does this as a one-off and then

4459
02:57:02,870 --> 02:57:00,640
sends you know and then you know

4460
02:57:04,469 --> 02:57:02,880
says okay now we could we could uh you

4461
02:57:06,870 --> 02:57:04,479
know hand off the technologies to be

4462
02:57:08,870 --> 02:57:06,880
sold back to us that's that's

4463
02:57:11,510 --> 02:57:08,880
you know completely different mindset of

4464
02:57:13,110 --> 02:57:11,520
how we should go about this and

4465
02:57:15,030 --> 02:57:13,120
i think that there's going to be very

4466
02:57:16,469 --> 02:57:15,040
big differences in how partnerships

4467
02:57:17,990 --> 02:57:16,479
occur

4468
02:57:33,670 --> 02:57:18,000
given different scenarios on the

4469
02:57:39,030 --> 02:57:37,750
okay um any la it is for 5 30 so we've

4470
02:57:40,070 --> 02:57:39,040
reached the end of our session but is

4471
02:57:41,269 --> 02:57:40,080
there any other comments you want to

4472
02:57:43,590 --> 02:57:41,279
make on this

4473
02:57:47,349 --> 02:57:45,510
okay any last comments for the session

4474
02:57:49,190 --> 02:57:47,359
hopefully hopefully everybody enjoyed it

4475
02:57:51,670 --> 02:57:49,200
as much as i did

4476
02:57:54,150 --> 02:57:51,680
um well i want to thank everyone

4477
02:57:55,990 --> 02:57:54,160
and thank my colleagues for for

4478
02:57:58,150 --> 02:57:56,000
participation today

4479
02:58:04,710 --> 02:57:58,160
um it was really an excellent session i

4480
02:58:08,710 --> 02:58:07,190
oh and we'll do our best to capture the

4481
02:58:18,790 --> 02:58:08,720
essence of what we've been talking about